Talk:Lettrism

Mike Rose

Someone has added the claim that Mike Rose "became a member" of the group in 1972. There is nothing to substantiate this claim in any published Letterist works that I have seen (and I have seen quite a few), nor is he listed on the official Letterist website. Googling for 'Mike Rose' and 'Lettrisme' or 'Lettriste' only turns up about a dozen hits, and most of those are to other Wikipedia articles anyway. It is true that Anne-Catherine Caron mentions him as having been "close to the Letterists at a certain time": but that's about it as far as solid, citable evidence goes, and it doesn't equate to his being in any sense a "member" of the group. I would propose keeping the reference, but relegating it to the section on people who have been influenced by the Letterists. Hce1132 (talk) 20:34, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I had never heard of him, either, frankly. Your suggestion makes sense to me, certainly in the absence of any compelling evidence. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 00:03, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

I do not want to discuss the meaning of being a member. But fact is Mike Rose became in the period of 70-80 part of them. " In 1972 Mike Rose, a German painter, set designer, and writer made acquaintance with the Lettrists and became part of them. He participated in their exhibitions until the 1980s." If you do not know Mike Rose, this does not mean that during this period he was not - what he was. With respect, as I know, not everything can be found via google. Fact is, he made acqaintance with the members of the group. He participated as a member in common exhibitions until the 80s. He was already working with letters and signs before being connected to the group. And he followed after the 80s his own way. So if you would like to know more about him and his work, i would be glad to answer your questions. I can tell you this: the first meeting was in a café parisien, like the cliché. Unfortunately Mike Rose is dead. So he could not tell himself about this period of time. But fortunately we have his books and still the remembrance of his french wife. Heriz (talk) 11:24, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

I subsequently managed to track down a page I'd been looking for earlier, and I see that he is mentioned: http://www.lelettrisme.com/pages/03_createurs/autres.php.

But does everyone named in that list merit discussion within the article? There are over a hundred of them! Surely, we should select the most notable ones. From the figures listed alongside Rose in the entry for 1972, for instance, that would clearly include Caron, but would probably not include a figure like Fauconnier, and would surely not include Van Den Driesche or Villiers. And this suggestion should in no way be thought to denigrate the value or significance of their work in itself, but solely their significance within the history of Letterism. And the proper authorities on the latter ought to be (a) the Letterists themselves, in conjunction with (b) secondary authors who have written about Letterism as such (as opposed to writing about these figures individually, and merely mentioning Letterism along the way). But, if you feel that Rose does have greater significance within Letterism than any of that literature would suggest, and if you can find some appropriate citations to back this up, then why not just add his name to this existing list in the article: "1963 to 1972. Several new members join group, including Roberto Altmann, Roland Sabatier, Alain Satié, Michéline Hachette, Francois Poyet, Gérard-Philippe Broutin, Jean-Paul Curtay, Woody Roehmer." You surely can't be suggesting that Rose is more notable in this context, and deserving of a fuller discussion in this article, than someone like Satié? Hce1132 (talk) 11:59, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

RepublicanJakobite just erased the sentence:" In 1972 Mike Rose, a German painter, set designer, and writer made acquaintance with the Lettrists and became part of them. He participated in their exhibitions until the 1980s." Fact ist that Eugen Gomringer said “He is today fully entitled to be described as ‘the German contribution to Lettrism’”. And in this same publication: "Mike Rose. Bamberg 1959-1979." Katalog zur Ausstellung in der Neuen Residenz, Bamberg. Edition 7&70, Hanau, 1979, ISBN 3-921726-05-0 (120 Abb.), there is a statement of Isidore Isou (p.10-12): "Mike Rose apparait, aujourd`hui, comme le plus grand peintre de l´allemagne de cette dernière après-guerre et comme l´un des plus grands peintres du monde....Le mérite de Mike Rose est d´avoir méprisé toute super cherie justifiée par des différences de langage, d´avoir assumé son état et ses aspirations d´homme ouvert aux possibilités de combat pour un univers meilleur et d´avoir adhéré au mouvement plastique le plus avancé surgi après cette dernière-guerre, au groupe lettriste, hypergraphique, dans le terrain duquel il s´est acharné à effectuer ses propres recherches, ses réalisations spécifiques, son oeuvre personelle. Aujourd´hui il dépasse les peintres de sa nation, autant qu´il appartient au groupe restreint de peintres d´avant-garde, internationaux, qui essaie d´offrir, à partir de la notion de création, une autre vision de leurs possibilités, une autre activité, à nos semblables de cette terre. Devant l´état actuel de nos contemporains, devant la crise économique en général, et artistique en particulier, dont ils sont, en ce moment, plus ou moin coupables, la tache de Mike Rose et de ses camerades lettristes est mise à rude épreuve. Je me demande aujourd´hui, avec angoisse, jusqu´à quel point, chacun de nous trouvera en lui les forces, et autour de lui les chances, pour résister et atteindre notre but, l´implantation d´une forme nouvelle d´art nécessaire, irréversible, ainsi que la constitution d´une socièté plus juste et plus heureuse." A short translation: It is to Mike Rose´s great credit that he has managed to avoid all forms of deception which would have been justified by language differences. It is also to his credit that through doing so he has suceeded in consolidating his own personal stand in the struggle for a better world and that he has associated himself, since the second World War, with the most progressiv of art movements, namely the "Lettristes". In this way he has consistently and determinedly realised his own investigations and his own work. This group of avant-garde painters working from a thought-base of creation, attemps to give fellow human beings a new conception of their own possibilities. If it is so easy to delete 2 sentences, I think it could also be easy to reconsider this step. After rereading the lines of Isdore Isou, i am certain that there is no trespassing by mentioning Mike Rose in the article about Lettrisme. I even think there is a need to mention him, so maybe we, myself - Hce1132 and RepublicanJakobite, can find together a solution. Heriz (talk) 17:19, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm happy to see him mentioned, the only questions are: whereabouts in the article should this reference go, and how extensive should it be? And, on those points, I've already indicated my preference. (By the way, does Gomringer specify the original source of that Isou remark? Not that I doubt its veracity for a moment -- it certainly does sound like Isou! -- I'm just curious). Hce1132 (talk) 17:50, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

The book is indexed in the German National Library. The words from Isidore Isou are in its preamble. By going through the archives we can surely unearth new evidence to go further in the discusion. But before making further enquiries, I would like to mention that it is still a fact that: "In 1972 Mike Rose, a German painter, set designer, and writer made acquaintance with the Lettrists and became part of them. He participated in their exhibitions until the 1980s." As it seems, this can be assent by Hce1132. Isidore Isou is dead. Regrettably we can not ask his advice. He seems to like the way of Mike Rose. And he was rejoiced by the fact - just put it in the context of time - that there was an internationalization. Make the world a better place is only possible with united force. To demonstrate respect for Isidore Isou and Mike Rose, we have to consider the history. I like the way of a precise modus operandi. But I did not comprehend the meaning of " I would propose keeping the reference, but relegating it to the section on people who have been influenced by the Letterists." (Hce1132). Where is this section? And don´t you think that this internationalization (German painter) is worth to be mentioned in the history of the lettrism. Concerning reference, evidence or proof... a german art historian, Dr. Eva Harker, mentioned in 1999: "Als mike rose 1972 den lettristen begegnet, hat er bereits seine eigene form der zeichenbildung gefunden. Der lettrismus, eine nach 1945 in paris entstandene avantgardistische bewegung, zielt sowohl auf künstlerischer als auch auf philosophischer ebene neue bedeutungsdimensionen von buchstaben und zeichen an...." .Heriz (talk) 09:13, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

In answer to your question "Where is this section?", I would simply invite you to look at the article. It's the section where Mike Rose is discussed. Hce1132 (talk) 13:51, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the guideline Hce1132! I would just attach something: that he introduced the Lettrism in Germany. To optimise the statement and the sentence construction, i propose the following: "In 1972 Mike Rose, a German painter, set designer, and writer made acquaintance with the Lettrists and became at thta time part of them. He participated in their exhibitions until the 1980s and introduced the Lettriste movement in Germany." This phrasing seems to me quiet adequate. If we are in agreement on this, i can proceed the editing. Heriz (talk) 09:04, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm not mad keen on "and became at that time part of them". How about "and collaborated with them on some projects"? Otherwise, this sounds fine -- but I'd still suggest leaving it in that same section of the article. Hce1132 (talk) 13:28, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Hello, im sorry not to talk english so well but it is really interresting to read all this, from France, knowing quite well about Lettrism (having met and worked with Isou, Lemaitre, etc...) Concerning Mike Rose, it is actually quite bizarre to note him as the major accomplishment of Lettrism in all the 70's, while for instance Isou finished writing his major work La Créatique... In fact, he is the german lettrist painter, there might be 2 or 3 autonomous publication on him (which i have for people interested in seing them). he is also important for having organised lettrists exhibition, collective and individuals, like Broutin's one in his Studio Bamberg. He might be seen a bit like the italian Lettrist (Gio Minola)etc.... but he is more of a detail in the developpement of the group, unless you see it from the german point of view. Concerning the key members i think you should add Jacques Spacagna who was member from 1959 to 1972, Roberto Altmann (1962 to 1969) and of course Jean-Louis Brau, from 1949 to 1953 then meeting Wolman again (on which i will curate the first international exhibition in june 2010 at MACBA, Barcelone) in 1959 and 1960 and joigning lettrism again from 1961 to 1964 (year of the split and creation of ephemeral Second Lettrist International), etc... If anyone wants further explanations, you can write me at frederic.acquaviva@orange.fr

I am a relative of his

very close in fact, My grandmother is his sister.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.151.62.54 (talk) 18:51, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Of Guy Debord or Isidore Isou or any of the other Lettrists? If that's true, please, have your grandmother give her story to a historian of this era... there are many in France, but in the US the one I am most familiar with is Greil Marcus. But any art historian of the 20th century would be interested, and easily found through university websites. These guys were actually really important, and your grandmother's memories should be part of history, if she's willing to share it... StrangeAttractor (talk) 04:59, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed

Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://primo.getty.edu/primo_library/libweb/action/dlDisplay.do?vid=GRI&afterPDS=true&institution=GETTY&docId=GETTY_ALMA21136977590001551. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 19:05, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Propose rename to "Pretentious assholes".

Discuss. 107.203.108.56 (talk) 19:38, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, welcome to 20th century art, my young friend. Your comment reminds me of an old politically incorrect joke, as follows. A guy from the hinterlands finds himself in Manhattan for a business convention and makes his way to a nearby bar in Chelsea, and proceeds to get drunk and talkative. "Hey," he says to a random stranger sitting next to him at the bar. "What's with all these homos? You know what I think? They should take them all and put them on an island." "Yeah, so guess what?" says the Chelsea stranger. "You're on it." StrangeAttractor (talk) 04:55, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Why is this a sub-category of Philosophy and not Art - How can this article be reclassified as an art movement, or (arguably, but not really) literature

I'm not a hardcore Wikipedia editor -- but isn't the whole point of Wikipedia for people like me to participate?

So I humbly ask -- how did this article get classified as an article that belongs in the philosophy portal? I mean, it is, in the sense that Dadaism or Hip-Hop might be considered to have philosophical underpinnings, but Lettrism was an art and poetry movement. It is a significant one, if obscure to the mainstream.

I'd love it if modern 21st century philosophy had a broad enough scope embrace to encompass such movements enthusiastically, but I think the more knowledgeable and sympathetic editors would be likely to find it if were classified under art (preferably, and more accurately) or poetry, not philosophy. It is not really a philosophical movement, except insofar as it had ideological positions (avant garde ones with no true relationship to formal philosophy, but a strong relationship to various manifestos of art movements)

As a largely occasional hit-and-run editor (often copy edits) I honestly don't know how to start the process of reclassifying it. Can someone help me?

I do respect the community that makes Wikipedia, but I believe the mission has always been to include casual editors such as me. I'd appreciate help from those who are more experienced here.

BTW, as you might guess from the name, they did a lot stuff centered around the generation and manipulation of textual material, but also did notable protest performances (not going to look it up right now, but gained serious media and legal notoriety for an offensive performance in a French cathedral). However, they can't truly be considered a significant literary movement - they belong to the world of art.

Thanks. StrangeAttractor (talk) 04:53, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

There is perhaps a misunderstanding of the purpose of Wikiprojects here. Wikiproject are groups of editors who want to collaborate on articles in a particular field. The Wikiproject Philosophy banner at the top of the talk page simply reflects that an editor thought this article might be of interest to the Aesthetics task force in Wikiproject Philosophy. But it doesn't imply any particular classification. If an art Wikiproject wanted to add their banner they could certainly do so.

Classification at WP is done mostly with categories. One can see that this article is placed in the "Lettrism" and "Situationist International" categories. The Lettrism category, at Category:Lettrism, is itself in the Modern Art category. Hope this helps, --Mark viking (talk) 05:58, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, Mark viking for the response. For many years, I've been an occasional editor of Wikipedia, but I've never been an truly active member of the community of editors. So, a long-time participant in editing, but not in the community, and so there are a lot things about Wikipedia on an organizational level that I don't know. Perhaps someday, but many of us are just users of Wikipedia who occasionally take issue with something on the talk page or (often in my case) choose to do a little copy-editing to clean something up. I appreciate that you took the time to explain this to me, and others who might have wondered. StrangeAttractor (talk) 05:50, 15 February 2017 (UTC)