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June 8

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June 10

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Combination ambulances & hearses in the USA

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It seems that at least until the late 1970s, in the USA there was a particularily close connection between hearses and ambulances - not only over the same manufacturers, but also double usage with the very same cars. Now while this allows some obvious synergies, it also has obvious drawbacks. Why was this connection more stable in the USA than in other parts of the world? --KnightMove (talk) 17:59, 10 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

The article Combination car (ambulance) offers some hints: an era when funeral homes offered emergency ambulance service in addition to their primary trade, especially in smaller towns and rural areas - was that US-specific? - often built on a Cadillac, decline due to federal regulations and a major downsizing of the passenger cars that were used.  Card Zero  (talk)  18:53, 10 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I also see a conflict of interest.  ​‑‑Lambiam 20:50, 10 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I always figured the vehicle could start a given situation as an ambulance and then finish as a hearse, as needed. Time saver. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots00:41, 11 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I heard an argument against that "conflict of interest" before. A funeral home director said that funeral services don't see "lost customers" because everyone will, at some point, be a customer for funeral services. It isn't like, for example, home sales. Some people never purchase a house. It is a choice. So, if you die today, tomorrow, or ten years from now, you are still a customer - just a future customer.
Then, she added to it the counter-argument. When someone dies, they don't pay for funeral services. They're dead. It is the living people who pay for it. The more living people there are, the more they tend to pay. So, if you get a customer when they are 20, they have their parents paying. If you get them when they are 80, they have children and grandchildren involved, which can greatly increase the total service price.
But, I agree that it is easier just to assume funeral service people want customers now, not later. ~2026-16820-81 (talk) 11:21, 11 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Families often invest in life insurance over the course of time, which helps to pay or fully pays the funeral cost. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots12:17, 11 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

June 11

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National Debt Office (UK)

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Notwithstanding that National Debt Office redirects redirected to Swedish National Debt Office, the UK also had a service or department of that name, at least between 1877 [1] and 1921 [2].

In 1898, George William Hervey, "Secretary and Comptroller-General, National Debt Office", was made a Companion of the Order of the Bath, so presumably it was of some import.

What was it, and what did it do? When did it end (or merge, and into what)? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:44, 11 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

It's a bad redirect, if nothing else, judging by the incoming links. But that said, it is another name for the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt. DuncanHill (talk) 15:51, 11 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. I have made the redirect into a dab page. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:22, 11 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

June 12

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Anyone who isn't confused here doesn't really understand what is going on

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I've always understood this quotation to have originated in Belfast at the height of the Troubles. I went to look it up today and find that as well as being ascribed to (variations on) "a Belfast citizen", it (or a slight variation on it) is also ascribed to Ed Murrow, the American broadcaster, possibly about Vietnam. Wikiquote has it "Anyone who isn't confused doesn't really understand the situation" and says: "As quoted in The Improbable Irish (1969) by Walter Bryan". So - can we find a definitive source for it? I rather suspect it's an idea that floats around looking for any appropriate situation and lands on a likely person. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 11:41, 12 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

In the congressional record, July 1965: “Anybody who isn’t confused by the Vietnam situation isn’t informed,” says Dr. Ray Smith, Jr.
Earlier than that: when the situation itself is confused, the newspaper reader who is not confused is a reader who is misinformed. Gerald W. Johnson (writer), writing in 1950 about the New York Times. If you like, there's also here a conceptually similar sentence about being confused by the Great Depression, 1938, but it's 80 words long.  Card Zero  (talk)  16:28, 12 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
DuncanHill, in American usage, that American name you mentioned is Edward R. Murrow, with the middle initial almost always included. I am 74, and I have very rarely heard his name shortened to "Ed" although that was a teenage nickname. Cullen328 (talk) 08:41, 14 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@Cullen328: In Britain he's pretty much universally known as Ed Murrow - I was surprised that his article was at another title. When he died the British government said "The friends of Ed Murrow are to be found in all walks of British life. They will remember a remarkable man who was a unique friend of this country. He was an American who identified himself with Britain when our fortunes were at their lowest and he understood with great clarity the power of the medium of communication that he served." Malcolm Muggeridge called him Ed when interviewing him. But even some Americans called, or call, him Ed. Adlai Stevenson said "Ed Murrow served the cause of truth gallantly, even as he served his fellow countrymen and his government." and the International Churchill Society (an American organisation) have a page called “This…is London”: Ed Murrow’s Churchill Experience An Anglo-American Friendship. DuncanHill (talk) 13:49, 14 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I heard Ethel merman in broken German/while Ute lempered back/and though accounts were thorough/did Edward R murrow/before he jumped the track? Sorry, not relevant to the discussion, just a song that played in my head when I saw the above, and now it's playing in yours. --Trovatore (talk) 18:25, 14 June 2026 (UTC) [reply]
It might be, if I knew the melody. —Antonissimo (talk) 18:12, 21 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
While looking to find a potential source for the quote in the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations, I discovered he was listed under "Ed Murrow (Edward Roscoe Murrow)".
Some quick Googling also turned up US sources, like the Jewish Journal in 2005 and the US Department of State, where apparently an "Edward R. Murrow" (if you read the document they're referencing) worked on something. Ceratarges-etc (talk) 13:24, 19 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Could be a riff on Niels Bohr's admonition "[t]hose who are not shocked when they first come across quantum theory cannot possibly have understood it"? That seems to be from 1952. --Trovatore (talk) 18:13, 14 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations says it's in Chapter 1 thereof, if we accept that as a reliable source. I can't find a searchable copy of The Improbable Irish online, however. Ceratarges-etc (talk) 13:27, 19 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Speech as an academic subject

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According to our article Ed Murrow, he "majored in speech" at Washington State College. I understand the American idea of majoring in something, but what is "speech" as an academic subject? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 11:56, 12 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Most likely that would be termed a "Communications" major nowadays. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots12:17, 12 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
DuncanHill. History of Speech Communication and Communication Studies at Utah State University 1890-2000 (p. 70 or 83/158 of the pdf) describes the content of the 1931 "speech major program" at the the University of Utah. Alansplodge (talk) 17:14, 16 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I took a communications class once. It was super fun. We studied the principles of oral and written communication for a semester. For a final project we had the freedom to come up with any topic we wanted and then were graded on our presentation and ability to persuade the class. I later learned this was a business course that prepared people for management consulting. Viriditas (talk) 17:35, 16 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you all. DuncanHill (talk) 19:57, 17 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Meaning of this paragraph?

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Hi!! Could I have some help interpreting what this reviewer is saying? In The Times Literary Supplement, a critic discusses George III in the context of Alan Lloyd's The Wickedest Age and Stanley Ayling's George III. They write:

One consequence of piety and devotion must be stressed; It is that they sometimes create a barrier between those who practise them and the ordinary run of humanity. Here Alan Lloyd's book, The Wickedest Age, is in point. While the pre-eminence of Mr Ayling's book is unaffected by the presence of a lighter and not always water-tight vessel, that vessel gives the reader a voyage over the darker waters of English life.

The text comes from page 5 of this document from the internet archive. There are just a few things that are really throwing me off, but if it was life or death I'd say that the reviewer reckons Lloyd's book covers the "barrier" (the vessel?) that was created due to George III's piousness and devotion (the vessel?) while Ayling's omits it?

What does this paragraph mean? What is the vessel? JordyGrey talk🧸 12:48, 12 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Lloyd's book is the "lighter and not always water-tight vessel". It looks at the "darker waters of English life". Ayling's looks at the piety of the King. DuncanHill (talk) 13:27, 12 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Okay... so not very helpful as a quote for a review of The Wickedest Age. Can you see anywhere in that page where the reviewer actually makes a judgement of Lloyd's book? JordyGrey talk🧸 13:43, 12 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Because that was the only time I could even see it mentioned :( JordyGrey talk🧸 13:43, 12 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Well, he is judging Lloyd's book to the extent of saying that it is 'lighter' (presumably meaning less dry and academic) than Ayling's, is 'not always watertight' (implying I suppose some deficiencies of fact or argument), and emphasises 'the darker waters of English life', but I agree that these observations, taken out of the review's overall context, are not very useful as quotes (and Wikipedia, of course, could not take into account my paranthetical speculative interpretations), although they might help a reader of the review to decide which of the two books to purchase. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2026-27434-43 (talk) 14:21, 12 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
The voyage over the darker waters is one of the good things the reviewer says about Lloyd's book. It reminds us of the contrast between the King and his subjects. You should buy both books, as they look at the age in different ways and to different ends. DuncanHill (talk) 14:31, 12 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
So maybe I can put a sentence together? Maybe "The Wickedest Age was directly compared to Stanley Ayling's George the Third by The Times Literary Supplement: Lloyd's book was described as 'a lighter and not always water-tight vessel, that ... [unlike Ayling's,] gives the reader a voyage over the darker waters of English life.'"
That still feels a bit random out of context, but if that source was going to be used in any way, this feels like it. JordyGrey talk🧸 15:17, 12 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@DuncanHill sorry, not sure if you saw this? Would I be ok to write something like the above paragraph or would it be better to leave that review out entirely? JordyGrey talk🧸 01:34, 14 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
@JordyGrey: I think that's a fair summary. Go for it. DuncanHill (talk) 01:36, 14 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Wife of John Edward Mosley

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Another one where The Peerage [3] conflicts with other sources.

Wikidata (citing only The Peerage) says John Edward Mosley (Q76135935): (1795-1862) (a relative of the Wedgwood-Darwin family) married "Sophia Anne Paget, daughter of William Paget" in 1824; the Darwin Correspondence Project has him marrying "Caroline Sophia Paget" (1790–1853; daughter of John and Jane Paget of Kilmersdon, Somerset) in the same year [4], citing records via Ancestry.com. Can anyone verify, please?

Did Sophia Anne Paget exist, or is that identity a conflation of others? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:03, 12 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Burke's Commoners, forerunner of their Landed Gentry, has her name as Caroline-Sophia, daughter of John and Jane. --Antiquary (talk) 15:28, 12 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Oo, ah, but Burke's Peerage goes with Sophia Anne, daughter of William, so nothing is settled yet. --Antiquary (talk) 15:37, 12 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
But Caroline Sophia Mosley's obituary in The Gentleman's Magazine gives her that name and calls her daughter of John and Jane Paget. Granted that such a source might get her parents' names wrong it could hardly have mistaken hers. --Antiquary (talk) 15:49, 12 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
And finally, there's a contemporary notice of the 1824 marriage here which confirms she's Jane Caroline Sophia daughter of John Paget. --Antiquary (talk) 16:09, 12 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Indexed records at FamilySearch [5] [6] also support that the couple married on 20 May 1824 were John Edward Mosley and Caroline Sophia Paget.
The Burke's Peerage reference [7] above says that the supposed William Paget was of "Newberry House, Somerset". But the 1879 Burke's LG [8] gives Newberry House as a seat of John Paget, husband of Jane, in fact it was "where he principally resided" and where he died in 1825.
The only Sophia Paget that I can see on FamilySearch, born or married in the right period, with a father William Paget, was LZPT-V7V born in Birmingham in 1802 who married a Samuel Spencer in 1823. They don't seem to be connections of the family you're looking at, so are probably irrelevant. That's not to say there might not have been a Sophia Paget who's not on FamilySearch, because coverage of the church records pre-1837 can be patchy; but they still most likely would not be associated with Newberry House. Jheald (talk) 17:24, 12 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, all. Now corrected and clarified on Wikidata. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:35, 13 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Permanent arm ornaments

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These

On the obscure barrel armband artifact from the bronze age Hallstatt culture, the book The Celtic World says In some cases it is clear that they cannot have been removed during life. This information is now in arm ring as Some were constructed so that it would have been impossible to remove them, but does that rewording match what was originally being said? How might it have been "clear that they cannot have been removed during life"? Could any form of construction be such that they can be put on, but not taken off? (What are they, Chinese finger traps?) Is the implication in fact that one grows into the armband until it's unremovable, or does "cannot" perhaps mean "were not"?  Card Zero  (talk)  22:58, 12 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

They're made of bronze or lignite (not that rare isotope of unobtainium called unremovablewhilealivium), so I'm guessing the author meant they don't show signs of being cut open. Certainly there is no way to guarantee they were lifelong adornments, and the rephrased version makes an unjustifiable claim. The wearer could have gone on a diet, voluntary or involuntary, such that it could slip off; or an unfriendly passing Viking or accident might have caused a (survivable) amputation. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:53, 12 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Mmm, OK. I'll probably change it to "some were apparently never removed".  Card Zero  (talk)  01:13, 13 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps they were never put on during life.  ​‑‑Lambiam 04:02, 13 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Skeptical armband: You're putting me on. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:33, 16 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

June 13

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Son(s) of Frederick Lukis

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Frederick Corbin Lukis (1788–1871), our article says, "had three daughters and six sons". Wikidata lists all nine at Frederick Lukis (Q15994597).

One of them is given as Frederick Corbin Lukis (died 1878—no DoB listed), spouse of Amelia Collings (Q76277425) (m. 1843), father of Laura Amelia Lukis (Q76277426) (no dates given). Largely sourced from The Peerage [9].

The Darwin Correspondence Project has Frederick Collings Lukis (1814/15–63), parentage not listed.

'Shellers From the Past and the Present' has an entry on "Lukis, Frederick Corbin" (Lt. Colonel; (1788–1871). It includes:

...However, Jeffreys must have referred not to the father, but to his eldest son, Dr. Frederick Collings Lukis, 1814-1863 (died from a lung decease he had suffered from during some years after just having become 48 years old, possibly tbc), who became a surgeon, and was like his father very interested in natural history and helped his father also in his archeological work, because Jeffreys 1863, when treating Abra tenuis, says "... the late Dr. Lukis, who favoured me with a description and a sketch in October 1859 ..." . The younger Dr. Lukis was a very good friend of Jeffreys and was said to be the best conchologist of the Channel Islands during this time. Jeffreys, however, continued his correspondence with the family through F.C. Lukis sr., until the old man died.

So was the son Frederick Collings Lukis (1814/15–63)? And if so, who was Frederick Corbin Lukis (died 1878)?

"Jeffreys 1863" is here: [10]. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:07, 13 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

June 14

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Did James IV have a beard

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All the pictures of James IV in the article about him show him clean shaven. The quote in James_IV#Culture_and_patronage states: He never cuts his hair or his beard. It becomes him very well. So, did he have a beard? --Lexiconaut (talk) 04:15, 14 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

The pictures of him on wikimedia also show him without a beard. c:Category:James IV of Scotland --Lexiconaut (talk) 04:24, 14 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
"The king's beard did not, however, last; on 9 August 1503, the day after his marriage to Margaret Tudor, James had his beard 'clippit' by the Countess of Surrey and her daughter at the exorbitant cost of £180 Scots, and duly appears clean-shaven in all his portraits."[11] I've always found being shaven by countesses is worth the extra money though. --Antiquary (talk) 08:49, 14 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Nice find! (the article has the date of marriage celebration as 8 August, but what's a day between friends) --Lexiconaut (talk) 18:16, 14 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, celebration = getting married, and the next day he had his beard taken off. More importantly, in Margaret Tudor's portrait, does she have a common marmoset? Europeans didn't land in Brazil until 1500, so she's an early adopter.  Card Zero  (talk)  19:21, 14 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
One wonders if she craunched it. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2026-27434-43 (talk) 13:57, 15 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Or was she cranched at the time? --Trovatore (talk) 19:21, 15 June 2026 (UTC) [reply]
This is actually mentioned in the article on the Countess of Surrey in question: Agnes Howard, Duchess of Norfolk. (She was Countess of Surrey at the time; she did not become Duchess of Norfolk until her husband was restored to that title in 1514.) "Agnes Howard, and her step-daughter Muriel, Lady Gray, clipped the Scottish king's beard on 9 August 1503, and he gave her a length of cloth-of-gold." (The name of the daughter is incorrect, however: she was in fact Muriel Grey (not Gray), Viscountess Lisle, the wife (soon-to-be widow) of John Grey, 2nd Viscount Lisle. She was one of the then-Earl of Surrey's daughters by his first marriage.) Proteus (Talk) 09:33, 15 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

June 15

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Children of Samuel & Lucy Galton

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Our article on Samuel Galton Jr. says (sources and trivia excised; numbering added):

Galton married Lucy Barclay (1757–1817), the daughter of Robert Barclay Allardice, MP, 5th of Ury. They would go on to have eight children together.

  1. His first born was Mary Anne Galton (1778–1856)
  2. Galton's second child was Sophia Galton who would go on to marry Charles Brewin.
  3. His first son, Samuel Tertius Galton (1783–1844)
  4. Galton had another son, Theodore Galton (1784–1810), although not much is known about him.
  5. His next child was Adele Galton (1784–1869) who would go on to marry John Kaye Booth, MD, in 1827
  6. Next would come Hubert John Barclay Galton (1789–1864)
  7. followed by Ewen Cameron Galton (1791–1800) who died at the age of 9
  8. His last child was John Howard Galton who married Isabelle Strutt. They had a son named Douglas Galton (1822–1899)

Yet [12], citing "England & Wales, Quaker birth, marriage, and death registers, 1578–1837 (Ancestry.com, accessed 16 October 2017", lists:

Priscilla Galton - 1781–4 - Daughter of Samuel and Lucy Galton.

Have we miscounted, and overlooked her? Can someone check the latter source, please?

Can we source dates for Sophia and John Howard? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:43, 15 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

A thought: Priscilla could have been as young as 2 years and 1 day when she died, and no older than 3 less 1 day; perhaps the records of the time simply omitted her. Is the total of 8 children actually quoted in a source, or was it arrived at by counting the children we have other records of?
Quakers did not baptise, so their children were not entered in Baptismal records, they kept their own. Nor were they usually buried in consecrated churchyards that kept official burial records. If a small child died, of an infectious disease, say, and was buried hurridly in private ground, the family might forget (or 'forget') to make any official record of the death, which cost money (3d at this time, equivalent to up to £10 today) to register. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2026-27434-43 (talk) 04:27, 16 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
You mean no older than 4 less one day. The Life, Letters and Labours of Francis Galton gives us John Howard Galton (1794–1862)[13] and Sophia Galton (1782–1863),[14] but it doesn't appear to mention Priscilla. --Antiquary (talk) 09:25, 16 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, you're right and I miscounted. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2026-27434-43 (talk) 16:32, 16 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
You idiot, it mentions her here. --Antiquary (talk) 12:32, 16 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

June 16

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The Piraeus

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Why and when did The Piraeus stop being "the" and become just Piraeus? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 09:34, 16 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

One angle of attack: Looking at Google's n-gram viewer and comparing some representative phrases ("in the Piraeus" vs "in Piraeus"; "from the Piraeus" vs "from Piraeus") suggests the no-The form took off circa 1910-1915 and has been in ascendancy ever since.
By the same method, "Ukraine" took over from "The Ukraine" very abruptly in 1988-1990, which sounds about right. ~2026-35237-61 (talk) 10:31, 16 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
"The Ukraine" meant "the borderland", and once they were free (sort of) from Russia the "the" part lost favor. "Piraeus" as a word seems to have an embedded "the", so another question was why it was ever called "the Piraeus" in English. Of course, we do have redundancies like that in English, for example the ball club called the Los Angeles Angels is literally "the the Angels Angels". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots11:13, 16 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
There is no embedded article in "Piraeus". However, in Greek it has always been used with the article, (ὁ Πειραιεύς in ancient Greek), so "the Piraeus" is just a literal take-over of Greek usage. --Wrongfilter (talk) 11:59, 16 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I had googled the name and it said "The Greek word Piraeus (Πειραιάς) translates to 'the place over the passage' or 'ferryman.'" ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots12:57, 16 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
That's nice, but there's still no embedded article. --Wrongfilter (talk) 13:01, 16 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Good point. More like "implied" article. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots13:03, 16 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
No. The article is ὁ. --Wrongfilter (talk) 13:22, 16 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Was it ever called "The Piraeus" in Greek? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots15:18, 16 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and as far as I know it still is. See my first response above. --Wrongfilter (talk) 15:21, 16 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Conversely, the Ukrainian and Russian languages do not have articles at all, whether definite or indefinite. Specificity is expressed via context. So, the "the" in "the Ukraine" was always an English invention. Or perhaps it was a calque from the French form, "l'Ukraine", as French was widely spoken in the upper echelons back in the day, sometimes almost to the exclusion of Russian itself. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 18:21, 16 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
In Greek, toponyms, like most proper nouns, tend to be used with a definite article. The Greek title of the song "Never on Sunday" is "Τα Παιδιά του Πειραιά", translated literally, word by word, "The Children of the Piraeus". Etymologically, the name is said to have meant something like "[the place] beyond [the passage]". But the vagaries of the development of a language tend to defy logical analysis. In English we use the definite article for the names of rivers and seas, but not for canals, straits and lakes rivers, canals, straits and seas, but not for lakes. Go figure. The question is perhaps, why was Piraeus "the Piraeus" before 1910–1915?  ​‑‑Lambiam 12:02, 16 June 2026 (UTC) [fixed 21:05, 16 June 2026 (UTC)][reply]
Lakes, yes, it's always "Lake Titicaca", "Lake Champlain", etc., but canals and straits? Examples?  Card Zero  (talk)  16:48, 16 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
"The Corinth canal", "the Straight of Hormuz" etc. Alansplodge (talk) 16:54, 16 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Er ... those examples have definite articles, same as "The Coral Sea" or "The River Niger".  Card Zero  (talk)  17:09, 16 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, in reply to Card Zero's assertion above (now amended). Alansplodge (talk) 21:24, 16 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Is the rank of amid a general?

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Or rather, is it closer to an American brigadier general or to a British brigadier? The rank insignia of an amid in most modern Arabic nations' armies display three stars, making it look like a senior colonel and not like a general. (The insignia of a liwa typically feature crossed swords, as if it was the first in the line of general ranks.) ~2026-29827-50 (talk) 11:52, 16 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

See Comparative army officer ranks of Arabophone countries which compares amid with the Francophone Général de brigade.
Also General officer#Arab system which says: amid - etymologically, translates as "colonel" but equivalent to brigadier/brigade general.
Alansplodge (talk) 16:45, 16 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Are you asking whether it is included in whatever the Arabic term is for "general officer" (which, as you imply, includes brigadier generals in US usage but not brigadiers in British usage)? That may well vary from country to country. The comparison article linked above shows at least some countries which appear to group it alongside higher ranks (e.g. Algeria, where it gets the fancier epaulettes that go with the higher ranks, and Yemen, where it gets the red band which likewise appears to indicate the higher ranks). But at least some others appear not to do so (e.g. Morocco, where it doesn't get the fancier epaulettes). Proteus (Talk) 11:41, 18 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the definition of a general officer varies from nation to nation, especially over the brigadier/brigadier general rank (One Star rank). Alansplodge (talk) 11:56, 18 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

June 17

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Why does Özal government has an "inefficient taxation"?

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High interest rates and the wage freeze combined to lower inflation to between 30 and 40 per cent in the first half of the 1980s. Then inflation rose again and in 1988 it reached its pre-1980 level of around 70 per cent. The reason was not primarily excessive consumer demand but the continuing high government deficit. This was caused by a number of factors: a failure to curb the growth of the large civil service; inefficient taxation, which left the huge profits of the industrial holdings and, especially, of the self employed, almost untouched; and, most importantly, the continued existence of a huge state industrial sector, which was inefficient and largely loss-making. The Özal government publicly declared its intention to privatize the public sector industries many times (as, indeed, had all governments since the early 1950s), but its privatization programme progressed only very slowly. Most of the state industries were so old-fashioned and overstaffed that investors were not interested in them. More effective was the abolition of a number of government monopolies, leading, for instance, to a large number of private airline companies and television stations. In both sectors members of the Özal family were among the pioneers. The position of the commercial radio and television channels was really rather extraordinary. The first TV stations, such as Star-1 (later Interstar) broadcast from Germany and could be received in Turkey via satellite dishes. Soon all the major holdings and especially the large newspaper publishers had their own channel. This was tolerated, although the article in the constitution that gave a broadcasting monopoly to the state was only changed years later in 1993.
— Turkey A Modern History

--Ataled (talk) 12:10, 17 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

In this case, "inefficient taxation" means that the government failed to collect enough taxes from profitable businesses, leaving the government short of funds. The phrase puts the onus for the problem on the government and implies that failure to collect these taxes was a result of disorganization. It is in contrast to "tax evasion" in which businesses hide or disguise profits in order to lower their tax payments. Xuxl (talk) 14:49, 17 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
It is no doubt that tax evasion transformed the Özal government's tax system from theoretically "modern" into structurally inefficient by hollowing out the state’s primary source of revenue, forcing the government to borrow heavily and trigger hyperinflation.
The question is, why did tax evasion occur during Özal's rule? You cannot blame businesses for tax evasion. It is the government that encourages tax evasion. The Özal government's failed formula: Rapid Deregulation + Weak Enforcement + Subsidy Loopholes = Systemic Tax Evasion. Stanleykswong (talk) 17:59, 17 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
First, what is an efficient tax system? The textbook definition is: an efficient tax system is one that maximizes government revenue while minimizing economic distortions, administrative costs, and the burden of citizen compliance.
Secondly, to what extent did the government of Turgut Özal (1983-1989) deviate from the above definition? The Turgut Özal government (1983-1989) deviated significantly from the standard definition of an efficient tax system.  Basically, it violated the four core pillars of public finance. An efficient tax system aims to minimize economic distortions and ensure tax compliance, but the Özal government established a highly decentralized, unstable, and easily exploitable tax system. Stanleykswong (talk) 17:48, 17 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Tax efficiency rests on three key principles: Efficiency (taxes are sufficient to pay for necessary services; easy to calculate; easy to collect; and difficult to avoid); economy (taxes do not distort personal or corporate economic behavior); and equitable (taxes are progressive, taking more from those with a greater ability to pay, and less from those with less ability to pay). DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 22:06, 17 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

June 18

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Trump's paper signing of the Islamabad Memorandum

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As Trump has now signed the memorandum on paper in Paris, I wonder why the Iranian counterpart was not present and did the counterpart signed it on paper separately somewhere else? Our article says that "remote digital signatures" were used, but then what's the point of signing on paper if digital signatures were used? As I understand, the parties should either sign it on paper or digitally, but the reports look conflicting. ~2026-35498-85 (talk) 14:35, 18 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Signing on paper is what is called a “photo op”. Blueboar (talk) 14:44, 18 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
The Iranian representative probably realized that anything Trump signs isn't worth the paper it's written on. Clarityfiend (talk) 22:24, 22 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Wm S. Wright

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[I asked this a month ago on Wikispecies, with no responses—will we do better here?]

Can we be confident that the "Wm S. Wright" who wrote Report on the Lepidoptera of the American Museum Expedition to Arizona, 1916 : Geometridae and Epiplemidae (1920; [15]) is William S. Wright (Q22112897): American entomologist? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:06, 18 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Circumstantial evidence: in that same bulletin, W.S. Wright is credited with the holotype of something in San Diego, and in William S. Wright's obituary it's said "He was regarded as a national authority on the Geometridae." There's also the Watson connection: I wish to acknowledge the helpfulness of Mr. F. E. Watson (in the Expedition to Arizona) and, in Notes and Descriptions of Geometridae (W. S. Wright, San Diego, 1917), "I am indebted to Mr. Frank E. Watson, of the Am. Mus. Nat. Hist., New York".  Card Zero  (talk)  04:26, 19 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. I think that's enough. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:45, 19 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I think that we can be confident that two contemporaneously publishing American lepidopterists both answering to "William S. Wright" would have made an effort to disentangle the resulting ambiguity.  ​‑‑Lambiam 07:51, 19 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
You'd think so, but there are similar cases where the two individuals did not. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:45, 19 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
The American Museum of Natural History uses a full name for authorship here. ~2026-35239-54 (talk) 14:45, 19 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

June 20

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Rimsky-Korsakov question

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The CD booklet of a recording of R-K's opera The Legend of the Invisible City of Kitezh and the Maiden Fevroniya tells me that "In addition to a number of quotations from his own works, Rimsky-Korsakov refers more or less directly in his Legend to all the music he had been concerned with in his career as a composer", and instances "the many folk melodies and hymn tunes, which he either deliberately transferred from the original source into his opera or wrote himself in the same manner." But what were those folksongs and hymns? If the Web has any answers then I can't find them, and a visit to my local university library only serves to show me that they don't teach Rimsky there. Can anything be unearthed? Thanks. --Antiquary (talk) 13:42, 20 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Amazingly, there is at least some stuff on this at Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov. Why not ask at the talk page there (currently 100% infobox cold war)? Johnbod (talk) 17:29, 20 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Well yes, that article does discuss in general terms his interest in folksong, collecting of folksongs, and use of folksongs in his works, but none (unless I missed something) are actually named. I asked my question purely out of curiosity, not because I intend to overhaul either the Rimsky or the Kitezh page, so WP:TALK#TOPIC applies. --Antiquary (talk) 17:53, 20 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Russian Opera and the Symbolist Movement (p. 144 onwards) suggests that it's a bit more complicated (over my head I'm afraid). Alansplodge (talk) 09:28, 22 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that seems to answer the question definitively: "Rimsky-Korsakov did not quote 'folk' melodies – and only quoted one 'liturgical' melody – in the opera. He relied instead on his creative intuition to abstract and stylize their principal attributes" (p. 148). That flatly contradicts the CD booklet writer, and with some authority to all appearance. Thanks very much. --Antiquary (talk) 10:44, 22 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

June 22

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Area of Vatican City

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FrankGevaerts (talk · contribs) and Heditorp (talk · contribs) found evidence that the entire world copied an incorrect early estimate of the area of Vatican City of 0.44 km2. They found that a more recent version of the original source corrected the area estimate to 0.49 km2, likely because the old estimate mistakenly omitted St. Peter's Square, and that measuring the area on a map agrees with this value. See Talk:Vatican_City/Archive_2#Area?, Talk:Vatican_City/Archive_2#Area, Talk:Vatican_City/Archive_2#Size_of_the_Vatican, and Talk:Vatican_City#Mistaken_44_ha_area. –LaundryPizza03 (d) 20:57, 22 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, archive links may be outdated by the time you read this, since the page was sloppily archived and this resulted in discussions being archived out of chronological order and apparently missing pre-2007 discussions. –LaundryPizza03 (d) 20:59, 22 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. Do you have a question? Matt Deres (talk) 23:47, 22 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
No, if you disagree or think the reasoning fails WP:OR you can argue further. –LaundryPizza03 (d) 23:54, 22 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
We're not supposed to enter into debates (see note at top of page). Let us therefore rephrase this as a question, so that we can debate it respectably: the CIA World Factbook says the area is 0.44 km², but calculations based on maps show 0.49 km². Which of these is correct, and which should go in the article? If I understand you correctly, the World Factbook has since changed its figure, but other sources repeat the old one?  Card Zero  (talk)  01:42, 23 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
What's that south of St Peter's?
In the bottom right corner of the map is an area that the key says is "extraterritorial property of the Holy See (Italian Territory)". Was that overlooked when doing the calculation? It looks like about 10% of the total.  Card Zero  (talk)  01:48, 23 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Well, if it's Italian territory it shouldn't be included in the total. Does the larger figure come from including it? DuncanHill (talk) 02:17, 23 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
It does not. The smaller figure on the other hand does match what you get if you omit St. Peter's Square, and since the status of that is a bit special, I think that's a decent candidate for what happened. FrankGevaerts (talk) 08:02, 23 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
According to the Vatican's official website (https://www.vaticanstate.va/en/state-and-government/general-informations/geography.html), the Vatican City-State has an area of ​​0.44 square kilometers. This is the baseline area established by the 1929 Lateran Treaty. However, this does not mean that the figure of 0.49 square kilometers is incorrect. This is the actual area calculated using modern satellite imaging and digital mapping technology.
The discrepancy lies between historical legal records and modern satellite measurements, and how cartographers handled buildings located along the border. Such discrepancies in the area of ​​any country or city would exist if modern technology were used. Stanleykswong (talk) 05:44, 23 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think modern satellite measurements have much to do with it, given that Heitordp found the 49ha measurement in the 1945-1946 edition of the De Agostini Atlas Calendar (page 128). It feels much more likely to me that nobody actually cared early on (and still today, the Vatican is kind of an unusual country. ) and an only one original source published a number which happened to be wrong.
The 1945-1946 edition of the De Agostini Atlas Calendar can be found at http://digitale.bnc.roma.sbn.it/tecadigitale/giornale/RAV0044648/1945-1946/unico/00000132 FrankGevaerts (talk) 07:58, 23 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Meanwhile the 1954 Enciclopedia Cattolica says "extending barely 440 thousand square meters", Esteso appena 440 mila mq., unhelpfully. Stanleykswong, I see no mention of area in the Lateran Treaty, what do you refer to?  Card Zero  (talk)  09:04, 23 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
I saw it in an article in Catholic Culture (source: https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=798). It read: “As a result of this treaty, the Holy See acquired a tangible body... This was a mere 0.44 square kilometres in area, ..." I also downloaded and read the treaty, and you're right, the treaty itself doesn't mention the actual area of 0.44 square kilometres. Stanleykswong (talk) 12:35, 23 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
A poor alternative to the 44,000 km2 of the Papal States before 1859, with a downsizing by five orders of magnitude.  ​‑‑Lambiam 22:38, 23 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

June 23

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Why did Tansu Çiller initially cut interest rates when there was already severe inflation?

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I find it hard to imagine that an economist would lack this kind of common sense, so I think there must have been other reasons behind it. Ataled (talk) 11:18, 23 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

This article from a Turkish economist goes into the issue. Its point is that even economists sometimes make obvious mistakes. Another article, this one from that time (1994), goes into more detail, but its basic claim is that Ms. Çiller was trying to boost growth, and the predictable result was that already bad inflation became worse. That writer blames the fact that she was an academic economist with little practical experience of government when she was appointed PM, making her more prone to enact mistaken policies. Xuxl (talk) 13:29, 23 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]

June 24

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