Talk:Victims of Nazi Germany

Table eastern slavs(GPO)

The number seems to have been removed from the table. Why? LouisBStevenson (talk) 15:18, 20 August 2025 (UTC)

Seems to have be added back in but it might be duplicative of the Soviet POW number Benica11 (talk) 19:45, 22 August 2025 (UTC)

@Levivich: reviving this thread since it addresses the same subject. The earlier 4.5 million figure comes from the first reference, the Columbia book (available through Anna's Archive, with another version here), which states:

Three million Poles (10 percent of the population) and 19,000,000 Soviet citizens (11 percent of the population) died at the hands of the Germans. Because these deaths were far more selective than was the case with Jews, Gypsies, and the handicapped, it is possible to place them in a different category. Those who would exclude them from the Holocaust emphasize that the Germans did not plan to kill all the Slavs. On the contrary, Germany considered the Slavs of Slovakia and Croatia as valuable allies, not candidates for extermination. Complicating the issue is the difficulty of distinguishing racially motivated killings of Poles and Soviet citizens from those that resulted directly or indirectly from German military actions. Bohdan Wytwycky has estimated that nearly one-fourth of the Soviet civilian deaths were racially motivated, namely, those of 3,000,000 Ukrainians and 1,500,000 Belarusans.

The second reference only mentions "millions" without providing specifics. I am not sure whether that is preferable to stating that at least 4.5 million died, but I wanted to provide some context for why the figure was set at 4.5 million. Paprikaiser (talk) 21:01, 26 August 2025 (UTC)

Thanks, Paprikaiser (great username btw). My view of it is that this passage doesn't support saying 4.5 million Slavs were killed, for a few reasons:

First, the passage doesn't explicitly say that all of the Ukrainians and Belarusians were Slavs. It implicitly suggests it, but I can't help but thinking at least one Ukrainian or Belarusian who died was not Slavic. So it could be reasonably interpreted to mean that less than 4.5 million Slavs were killed.

Second, the converse: not all Slavs who were killed were Ukrainian or Belarusian. The estimate is an estimate of Ukrainian and Belarusian deaths, not all Slav deaths. So it could be interpreted to mean that more than 4.5 million Slavs were killed.

The authors could have said "about 4.5 million Slavs," but they didn't say that, they said 3 million Ukrainians and 1.5 million Belarusians, and I think interpreting that careful choice to mean "4.5 million Slavs" crosses over into improper WP:SYNTH.

Third, the authors aren't even saying this in their own voice; rather, they're conveying one estimate by one other expert. I don't think this attributed estimate in an RS is sufficient to support a definitive statement in Wikivoice.

So, bottom line, for me anyway, is that an attributed estimate of 3 million Ukrainians and 1.5 million Belarusians killed is insufficient to support a definitive statement in Wikivoice that it was 4.5 million Slavs. It could have been more or less than that, according to the RSes cited.

Finally, given that other sources are even less definite than this one, I think it's better to go with the vaguer "millions," rather than engage in false precision by saying "4.5 million Slavs" in the table. To put a particular number on it, I think we'd need at least one RS, and preferably multiple RSes, that use that exact number in their own voice, i.e. multiple sources that say "X Slavs killed." If the RSes hedge or are vague ("millions"), then we should follow the sources and be similarly vague.

What's your view of it? Levivich (talk) 00:26, 27 August 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for the detailed breakdown! I'll have to agree with your points. Since the sources are purposefully vague, it feels more accurate to go with an approximation (like "unknown millions") rather than a specific figure. I'll see if I can find any sources that offer a clearer number, but for now it seems better to err on the side of caution. Paprikaiser (talk) 19:42, 27 August 2025 (UTC)

I'm sorry but what are these mental gymnastics? it clearly states Ukrainians and Belarussians, which are Slavs - if they wanted to be vague, they'd say Soviets, which encompassed multiple nations and ethnicities. IMO them specifying Ukrainians and Belarussians rather than saying Soviets or something else general, like eastern Europeans, is them actually being specific rather than vague. Your issue is that they didn't say "Ukrainian Slavs" and "Belarussian Slavs", but that's completely redundant RealSEnergy (talk) 10:28, 5 September 2025 (UTC)

I propose we insert a "Soviet Civilians" section, and write 4.5 million Ukranians and Belarussians. rnk (talk) 01:34, 27 December 2025 (UTC)

Maybe it'd be better to say according to Wytwycky, 3 million Ukrainians and 1.5 million Belarusians because that's what the source says, rather than combining them in a way that the source does not combine them (WP:SYNTH). Levivich (talk) 04:54, 27 December 2025 (UTC)

@Levivich Sure. I originally wanted to do that, but was unsure whether it would be too wordy for a table. Should I make the change? rnk (talk) 04:56, 27 December 2025 (UTC)

I envisioned adding two more rows to the table, one for Ukrainians and one for Belarusians. It would also need to be added to the body of the article as well (with citations in the table and the body of course).

A sentence about the Ukrainian estimate could be added to the Ukrainian section. Not sure where to put the sentence about the Belarusian estimate--a new section with just one sentence is not ideal, but maybe that's the thing to do if there is no better place to put it.

If you want to WP:BOLDly make the changes, go for it (and thanks!); if anyone else disagrees, they'll modify your changes or revert you. Alternatively, you might want to wait a day or two and see if anyone else chimes in, entirely up to you. Levivich (talk) 05:02, 27 December 2025 (UTC)

@Levivich

If there's no update, I'll make the changes tomorrow morning. It is quite late for me now, and I think I'll get some sleep, wait for feedback/notes/requests, and then make the change when I wake up.

I'm glad to be able to work on this article, my family was actually from the USSR and was sent to concentration camps during the Great Patriotic War. I always feel upset seing that Slavic losses are ignored by the general public.

If it's late for you as well, good night. If not, enjoy the rest of your day, and I'll be able to respond to anything when I wake! ♥️ rnk (talk) 05:14, 27 December 2025 (UTC)

@Levivich, could you please make the edit? This article is protected and as a new user with less than 500 edits I can't make any changes. rnk (talk) 18:10, 27 December 2025 (UTC)

@rnk: Sure. It'll be a few days before I get back to a computer, but I can take care of it later this week. Levivich (talk) 20:18, 27 December 2025 (UTC)

@Levivich: Its more complicated than that (it’s always more complicated). 3 million in Ukraine means all non-Jewish persons killed while physically in Ukraine including Roma and some Soviet POWs. We can’t say 3 million (ethnic) Ukrainians because that would mean double counting to some unknown degree. Mikewem (talk) 20:54, 27 December 2025 (UTC)

@Mikewem: I agree we have to be cautious about overlaps in categories to avoid double-counting. However, in the quote above, the part that says Bohdan Wytwycky has estimated that nearly one-fourth of the Soviet civilian deaths were racially motivated, namely, those of 3,000,000 Ukrainians and 1,500,000 Belarusans. I understand that to mean 3M U's killed because they were U's (not because they were Roma U's or POW U's or for any other reason), and 1.5M B's killed because they were B's (not because they were Roma or POW B's or for any other reason). (In fact, definitely not because either were POWs, since the source explicitly says "civilians".) Do you not interpret it the same way? Levivich (talk) 04:18, 28 December 2025 (UTC)

I made a couple edits to try and implement this (1, 2), while avoiding double-counting. Not sure I like what this did to the table formatting (it got wider), and also the table implies all the U and B deaths were Slavs (see my comment above about that). But, eh, it's a start. Anyone should feel free to edit/revert these additions. Levivich (talk) 20:37, 30 December 2025 (UTC)

@Levivich: The width of the table is certainly an eyesore. I have been reading this discussion and have a question: instead of "unknown millions", could we say "at least 19 million"? That is explicitly what Niewy states. Using East Slavs as a category also doesn't seem accurate, considering the sources refer to Soviet citizens, and not all Slavs were Soviet citizens. Ukrainians and Belarusians are mentioned only as an estimated racially motivated subset within that total. I am not sure whether embedding a list inside a table would be against MOS, but we could try something like:

Estimated death toll among Nazi Germany's victims (incl. the Holocaust), 1933–1945

Community	Murdered	Refs.
Soviet citizens	at least 19 million, including 3 million Ukrainians 1.5 million Belarusians	[2][3]

Notes

The footnote can cite the Niewy/Wytwycky reference, or we could keep it in the Refs section. What do you think? Paprikaiser (talk) 22:03, 30 December 2025 (UTC)

Seems like a good idea, I'd say to go ahead with it. WikiFloath (talk) 23:56, 30 December 2025 (UTC)

No objection here. (My understanding is that Soviet citizens and Slavs are overlapping groups and sources use both terms; I don't know if either one is used more often.) As a general observation, I worry the table is WP:SYNTHy because it combines different estimates of different categories into one table, and thus we run into problems of vague, overlapping, and possibly contradicting or double-counted categories. It would be better if the whole table was sourced to sources that had a whole table with all the categories, but I'm not familiar enough with the source material to know of any offhand. Levivich (talk) 07:07, 31 December 2025 (UTC)

Well, Slavs are an ethnic group while Soviets are all the people who lived in the USSR.

I am a Slav but not a Soviet.

My mother is both a Slav and a Soviet.

Plenty of people who lived in the USSR (Asians, for example) were Soviets but not Slavs.

And the Queen of England was neither a Slav nor a Soviet.

I'm sure you know this (but it's an important distinction to make). I say we use "Slavs", since "Soviet Citizen" implies that these people were attacked for their nation and not for their race. Hitler expressed his hate not for the Soviet Union, but for the Slavic people, who he saw as beasts, the most barbaric of people. Due to his disgust, Hitler ordered the killing of Slavs by his military. WikiFloath (talk) 15:51, 31 December 2025 (UTC)

The second source states that According to Nazi ideology, Slavs were useless subhumans. As a result of these racist fantasies, millions of Soviet civilians were deliberately killed, starved, or worked to death which seems to suggest that both terms are used interchangeably. Niewyk also appears to use "Slavs" somewhat interchangeably, for example when he writes that those who would exclude them [Soviet citizens] from the Holocaust emphasize that the Germans did not plan to kill all the Slavs.

So I think we could replace "Soviet citizens" with "Slavs" (which is a broader category than "East Slavs") without going into WP:SYNTH territory. If everyone is happy with this I'll make the change. I'm fine with both options.

And happy new year! Paprikaiser (talk) 21:44, 31 December 2025 (UTC)

I'm good with that. Thanks! Levivich (talk) 23:21, 1 January 2026 (UTC)

While there is a compelling argument that you cannot really separate persecutory (racial) and military (instrumental) reasons for deaths in the context of wars like this one, the best effort to estimate and categorize the total death toll in my view goes to Empire of Destruction. (t · c) buidhe 03:18, 4 September 2025 (UTC)

But wouldnt it be best to at least post the specific Ukrainian civilian death toll, as it is distinct from the POW death toll, and is mentioned in the text? LouisBStevenson (talk) 19:34, 11 October 2025 (UTC)

We don’t have a specific Ukrainian POW death toll. We only have a Soviet POW death toll.

The reason there is not a row labeled “Ukrainians” in the persecution victims chart is because that chart is sorted by the identity for which the victim was persecuted. RSs do not report that Ukrainian civilians were persecuted due to their Ukrainian nationality. RSs report that Jewish Ukrainian civilians were persecuted due to their Jewish ethnicity and that Slavic Ukrainian civilians were persecuted due to their Slavic ethnicity. The total number in the text that you mentioned is a count of all Ukrainian civilians: Ukrainian Jews plus Ukrainian Slavs. Mikewem (talk) 18:34, 12 October 2025 (UTC)

If we say "at least 19 million" in the middle of the table, then the number at the bottom of the table cannot be "at least 13 million". But what comprises this 19 million? All Soviet dead? Should we include all the dead from the other fronts as well? Ben Aveling 09:18, 21 January 2026 (UTC)

No, this includes racial-based genocide.

From what I remember, the total deaths from WW2 was 27M for the Soviet Union. Not all of those were racial killings, but the ones that were should be included. Targets (talk) 23:28, 21 January 2026 (UTC)

27 includes ~8 military deaths (combat+the POW persecutions). Leaving 19 total civilian deaths from all war-related causes (includes famine, disease, etc). There is no consensus for the number of racial-based killings of civilians beyond the vague “millions”. Mikewem (talk) 01:51, 22 January 2026 (UTC)

Some more problems

• The table is mostly based on US Holocaust Museum's summary which mentions the Poles, the Serbs and the Soviet POWs, but mentions neither Ukrainians, Belarusians, nor Russians.
• Slavs are surely not one "community". I don't know of any RS uniting e.g. Poles and Russians in the same group.
• 19 mill. is impossible: 3 mill. Ukrainians + 1.8 mill. Poles + 1.5 Belarusians + 0.3 Serbs totals 6.6. If we add 5 mill. Russians, we reach 11.6. More than 7 million missing. There are simply not enough other Slavic peoples to reach 19 millions. Rsk6400 (talk) 16:58, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

  We need English sources and prose for Serbs and also Slovenes. We listed Serbs as 300,000-1,000,000, but our article Genocide of Serbs in the Independent State of Croatia gives the range as 200,000-500,000 Mikewem (talk) 18:18, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

  As Mikewem noted, casualty ranges will vary. It is disingenuous to expect the 19m figure to be supported with 100% individually accounted-for deaths. Even today, we cannot name every one of the roughly six million Jewish victims, yet that does not make the figure inaccurate. Paprikaiser (talk) 20:35, 31 January 2026 (UTC)

  I have not found 19 supported in RS for inclusion in this article (whose topic is killings as part of persecutions by Nazi Germany). Niewyk cites Wytwycky’s estimate that a quarter of those 19 might have support for inclusion in this article. 19/4=4.75

  4.5 of those 4.75 are then given as Ukrainians (3) and Belarusians (1.5). 3+1.5=4.5

  The wider consensus of all sources states that there is no consensus for the number of Soviet civilians who were killed in acts of persecution, beyond a vague “millions”. Mikewem (talk) 21:52, 31 January 2026 (UTC)

I just removed the number of 19 million, but I'd suggest to remove also the Ukrainians and Belarusians, because we run into a lot of difficulties if we combine different sources. Not the least problem is to distinguish along ethnic lines - e.g. are ethnic Russians living in Ukraine counted as Ukrainians ? If so, then why not ethnic Jews ? Rsk6400 (talk) 17:09, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

The Niewyk source specifically says 19,000,000 Soviet citizens (11 percent of the population) died at the hands of the Germans and nearly one-fourth of the Soviet civilian deaths were racially motivated, namely, those of 3,000,000 Ukrainians and 1,500,000 Belarusans. I am not sure why the figures of the table were combined at some point before the table was deleted. That appears to be WP:SYNTH. Paprikaiser (talk) 20:29, 31 January 2026 (UTC)

"Murdered" on the table

Could be wrong here, use of the word "murdered" with the victims table seems wrong. Murder is defined as "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another", and the Holocaust was committed not by a person but by a state. In definition but especially in common usage, "murder" is committed by a person, or at most a small group of people, not by thousands and thousands of soldiers. Therefore, I propose we replace "murdered" with any of the following

- Victims

- Killed

- Deaths

- Casualties WikiFloath (talk) 00:01, 31 December 2025 (UTC)

My 2c: "murdered" is fine, as is "victims" or "killed". "Deaths" and "casualties" might be overbroad or misinterpreted. I prefer "death toll" though, I think that's the most "encyclopedic." Levivich (talk) 23:46, 1 January 2026 (UTC)

Hi Levivich,

I’ve really been neglecting this page. There’s always new and surprising things that pop up in breaking news, but that’s no excuse.

Our chart is largely based on and sourced to the charts at USHMM. They use “murdered” in the title of the chart and “victims” in the title of the number column. It appears there has been some effort to “complete” the chart on WP over the years. My view is that USHMM is the best source on determining whether or not the USHMM chart is complete.

In response to the OP, it’s not as if the state picked up and fired the gun. States are abstract entities that do not have hands or fingers. Mikewem (talk) 00:18, 2 January 2026 (UTC)

Another source with a table is Appendix 1 of Empire of Destruction which might be

on WP:TWL. I bet there are others as well. Levivich (talk) 01:19, 2 January 2026 (UTC)

Is there a reason Russians aren't included in the table?

I was just reading through the page and it says that the estimate is five million Russians killed by the Nazis, which is greater than the 3 million Ukrainians and 1.5 million Belarusians but it's not included in the table. Is there a particular reason for that? Should they be included? HamNCheeseSandwich (talk) 11:20, 28 January 2026 (UTC)

Do you have an RS for the number of ethnic Russians? Slatersteven (talk) 11:43, 28 January 2026 (UTC)

That's what I mean, there's already a source in the page. This line "An estimated one-quarter of Soviet civilian deaths at the hands of the Nazis and their allies (five million Russians, three million Ukrainians and 1.5 million Belarusians) were racially motivated." uses the second citation (Donald L Niewyk, The Columbia Guide to the Holocaust, Columbia University Press, 2000, p 49). HamNCheeseSandwich (talk) 12:11, 28 January 2026 (UTC)

Then I see no reason not to add them. Slatersteven (talk) 12:14, 28 January 2026 (UTC)

This is the full text of the relevant section on pg 49:

POLISH AND SOVIET CIVILIANS Slavic civilians, ordinary citizens of Poland and the Soviet Union in particular, were held no higher in Nazi racial ideology. Millions were forced to work for the Germans under frequently murderous conditions. Their natural leaders, such as teachers, professors, lawyers, clergymen, and politicians, were ruthlessly exterminated by the Germans. Others perished in massive German reprisals against various forms of resistance. Three million Poles (10 percent of the population) and 19,000,000 Soviet citizens (11 percent of the population) died at the hands of the Germans. Because these deaths were far more selective than was the case with Jews, Gypsies, and the handicapped, it is possible to place them in a different category. Those who would exclude them from the Holocaust emphasize that the Germans did not plan to kill all the Slavs. On the contrary, Germany considered the Slavs of Slovakia and Croatia as valuable allies, not candidates for extermination. Complicating the issue is the difficulty of distinguishing racially motivated killings of Poles and Soviet citizens from those that resulted directly or indirectly from German military actions. Bohdan Wytwycky has estimated that nearly one-fourth of the Soviet civilian deaths were racially motivated, namely, those of 3,000,000 Ukrainians and 1,500,000 Belarusans. Those who would include Polish and Soviet civilian losses in the Holocaust include Bohdan Wytwycky in The Other Holocaust, Richard C. Lukas in The Forgotten Holocaust: The Poles Under German Rule, 1939–1944, and Ihor Kamenetsky in Secret Nazi Plans for Eastern Europe. These scholars point out that the deaths were a direct result of Nazi contempt for the “subhuman”

not seeing support for “5 million Russians”. Mikewem (talk) 15:57, 28 January 2026 (UTC)

So, to the OP, where is the source for 5 million Russians. Slatersteven (talk) 16:01, 28 January 2026 (UTC)

I got 5 million Russians from the text of this page. It sounds like the figure given in the Russian section was unsupported by the citation. HamNCheeseSandwich (talk) 12:10, 29 January 2026 (UTC)

There’s also implicit evidence against our current use of 19 million Soviets in there. It says 19 million in the same breath as 3 million Poles. But the number of persecuted Poles is well-documented. It’s 1.8 million. 19 and 3 are clearly described as the number of total dead due to Germans, not necessarily the number of racially-motivated killings. Mikewem (talk) 16:01, 28 January 2026 (UTC)

The numbers in the table don't add up. We've got at least 19 million Slavs, but the total is only 13+ million. And in the Scope section we say 17 million. I realize it's impossible to get an accurate count, but either the numbers should add up or there should be some explanation, maybe in a footnote. GA-RT-22 (talk) 23:00, 28 January 2026 (UTC)

Ethnic Russians are not listed separately, as such, of course, it will not add up. Slatersteven (talk) 11:41, 29 January 2026 (UTC)

I don’t understand what you mean here. Could you say more? Mikewem (talk) 17:17, 29 January 2026 (UTC)

I think what GA is asking is why does the table fail WP:CALC. 6 + (at least)19 + 3.3 + ~.75 others ≠ 13. It’s also far from 17, which we present as the broadest possible total. And yet calc in our table yields (at least) ~29. Mikewem (talk) 17:22, 29 January 2026 (UTC)

If you have a total, and then an incomplete list of examples, the total will be more than the incomplete list adds up to (as the list is not complete). Slatersteven (talk) 17:57, 29 January 2026 (UTC)

The problem here is that our total is significantly less than the list of examples. 13 (or 17) is much less than 29.

This suggests to me that the list is over-complete (it includes numbers that it shouldn’t). Mikewem (talk) 18:05, 29 January 2026 (UTC)

Which list, as I thought you meant that one for Slaves at least 19 million, including 3 million Ukrainians[a] 1.5 million Belarusians[a] 1.8 million Poles 310,000–1 million Serbs 20,000–25,000 Slovenes? Slatersteven (talk) 18:30, 29 January 2026 (UTC)

Ah, I understand now. At the bottom of the table, there is a line for Total which says 13+ million and is sourced. In the prose of the article we also give a highest estimate for the same value, which is 17 million. But the full table adds up to 29. Mikewem (talk) 18:45, 29 January 2026 (UTC)

Then the total needs altering. Slatersteven (talk) 10:42, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

Sure, do you have a source that says the total number of killings by Nazis characterized as persecutions is 29 million? Mikewem (talk) 17:12, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

Here we could just add up the totals in the table. 17:15, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

Is a murdered Ukrainian Jew counted twice here?

Many Jews were also Ukrainian, Polish, etc. are they counted twice?~2026-64520-6 (talk) 22:58, 29 January 2026 (UTC)

Hard to say, but the text is the murder of more than 1.8 million ethnic Poles and about 3 million Polish Jews. So no, they are not counted twice. Slatersteven (talk) 10:46, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

Extending to LGBT+ victims

Homosexual men are now highlighted as a specific group. But it might be worth it to extend this to other LGBT+ groups as well. For example, trans women were also given a pink triangle and locked up along with gay men. ~2026-72772-3 (talk) 19:10, 2 February 2026 (UTC)

See also the article

Transgender people in Nazi Germany ~2026-72772-3 (talk) 19:16, 2 February 2026 (UTC)

A WP article is not considered a reliable source (see WP:RS). So we'd need external sources that also reflect the terminological problems (the term transgender had not been coined yet; blinded by their own ideology and inhumanity, the Nazis saw trans women as gay men). Rsk6400 (talk) 20:20, 2 February 2026 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 February 2026

Change "just because they there Freemasons is unknown."

To "just because they were Freemasons is unknown." IawnFfrind (talk) 18:45, 17 February 2026 (UTC)

 Done Thanks for pointing it out. LizardJr8 (talk) 20:15, 17 February 2026 (UTC)