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Has the 2018 book by Turley and Martin been discussed much in academic circles? I notice it was self-published through Amazon's CreateSpace. While it's obviously possible for a book to struggle to find a conventional publisher because of inflammatory content, but I'd like to know more about how it's been received. Is it self published because it's controversial, or because it's crankery? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2620:22:4000:105:1f98:781:5e07:1e8f (talk) 12:50, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The work does appear to be self-published but I don't know the answer to your question. I do think it would help if we had stronger independent, secondary sources that refer to their work. Barring that, it probably should not be included in the article. Stefen Towers among the rest!Gab • Gruntwerk19:46, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thomas Merton did not live the life of a mystic.
Did he pursue the interior life? No. He wrote about it, but he didn't live it.
Did he die, or even try to die, in obscurity? No. He actively pursued fame.
Did he die to himself? No. Thomas Merton had a massive ego.
Who declared that Thomas Merton was a mystic? Thomas Merton.
Anybody can read and write about God.
Anybody can declare himself a mystic. ~2026-12707-5 (talk) 05:06, 7 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
And which mystics write books about themselves? Only one: Teresa of Avila, because her confessor ordered her to.
Melchior2006 That Merton was a Mystic is covered in parts of the article even after your lead removal. Are you saying those mentions aren't well sourced? I have no dog in this fight, so to speak, but I do think we need to find a balance in the material. Stefen 𝕋owerHuddle • Handiwerk08:28, 7 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your comment. There are indeed a few references to TM as a mystic in the article, but if you look closely, you will see that is weakly sourced. Most of the times the word "mystic" appears in categories, labels, etc. (= marginalia). There is a dissertation titled "Thomas Merton's mystical quest for the union with God," but dissertations are to be used with caution. My argument: TM enjoyed teaching mystical literature to the novices. But that does not make him a mystic. He was interested in Zen Buddhism. That does not make him a mystic, either. I would suggest we remove the categories and marginalia referring to TM as a mystic. You would have to prove he had visions, was given to religious ecstacy, that kind of thing. And he wasn't. -- Melchior2006 (talk) 08:40, 7 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Well, as I've never come close to this field of study, I would be happy to defer to your judgment on these potential changes. I'm just seeking balance in the presentation. Stefen 𝕋owerHuddle • Handiwerk08:44, 7 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
There are sources for him being a mystic, others indicate that he wrote on mysticism. At least one Benedictine source calls him "one of the most well-known mystic in modern times". Which source supports your statements, ~2026-12707-5?--Medusahead (talk) 11:19, 7 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
For my part (Melchior), I found a reference to Thomas Merton, "An Introduction to Christian Mysticism: Initiation into the Monastic Tradition 3," ed. Patrick F. O’Connell. But that is secondary literature about mysticism, not mysticism itsefl. So, no go on that front. Then I found "Merton: Mystic at the Center of America," a 150-page scholarly work by Thomas M. King, S.J., published in 1992. AI tells me this: "King argues that for Merton, mysticism is not an anti-rational or "otherworldly" state but something that flourishes in ordinary circumstances and everyday life." This suggests to me that Merton was not a mystic in the conventional use of the term. -- Melchior2006 (talk) 14:04, 7 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing in this Wiki article supplies evidence to show that Merton lived the life of a mystic. There may be evidence to support the idea that Merton said he was a mystic, and some people believed it. But some didn't. It requires knowledge of the mystical lifestyle to discern this. Not all mystics experience religious ecstasy, so Merton not reporting any doesn't matter here. The Wiki article on mysticism is helpful here. That article references King 2002, pp 17-18. The wiki article states: the definition of mysticism grew to include a broad range of beliefs and ideologies related to "extraordinary experiences and states of mind". By comparing definitions of mysticism and the mystical lifestyle (such as, disappearing into obscurity) with Thomas Merton's life, it is easy to determine that he was not a mystic. If TM had no extraordinary, mystical experiences and states of mind or any other attributes related to mysticism, then he could hardly be called a mystic in the objective sense.
Sources which label TM a mystic may not actually exanmine whether he was a mystic in name only, or through his activities, and only take the label for granted. But I haven't looked into those. I'm satisfied with comparing mysticism with TM's lifestyle, which shows that he did not report mystical states of awareness and did not die in obscurity. He did not die to himself, which requires the total destruction of the ego. Many of his fellow monks, from my understanding, would report that TM had a massive ego based on their personal experiences with him. ~2026-12707-5 (talk) 16:09, 7 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
By "extraordinary, mystical experiences and states of mind" I'm not necessarily referring to religious ecstasy. He reported that he experienced love of all people at one time while shopping. But he didn't believe in pursuing such states of mind. ~2026-12707-5 (talk) 16:12, 7 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for all the comments so far. Let's work toward a resolution. Does anyone know of writings or statements by TM that would qualify as "mystical" (= "extraordinary experiences and states of mind")? If not, I propose we remove the categories and marginalia referring to TM as a mystic. -- Melchior2006 (talk) 08:18, 9 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Like Stefen 𝕋owerHuddle • Handiwerk, I have no expertise in the subject matter, but note the previous assertions were originally sourced in the article to: Farrell, James J. (1995). "Thomas Merton and the Religion of the Bomb". Religion and American Culture. I added two more sources to the respective article content. Hope that helps. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kyle4344 (talk • contribs)
A useful addition, thank you. But we really do need something substantial, more than the titles of magazine articles or even titles of dissertations. We need texts or statements or even witnesses' accounts that attest to some mystical quality of TM's life and/or personality. If no one can cite such a reference, I will remove the categories and marginalia referring to TM as a mystic. --Melchior2006 (talk) 07:02, 10 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
The content "recognized as an important 20th-century Catholic mystic" is now accompanied by an inline citation which enables users to verify that the cited information is supported by reliable sources (i.e. books published by respected publishing houses, mainstream magazine, including specialty one). WP:WHYCITEWP:VWP:SOURCEWP:PAYWALL.
I believe the appropriate approach to address your concern is Template:Disputed inline, including reliable sources that dispute the conclusions of the cited material. Again, I am not sufficiently familiar with the subject to compare the plethora of scholarly works, but from a cursory review, I anticipate you'll can find reliable sources to support a change in the article's content to reflect there is a difference of opinions among religious scholars. Kyle4344 (talk) 16:24, 10 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
