Talk:Shaka

Biography

I think wikipedia should add more context in the way that they decided the next king and scenarios when the kings son was killed. 138.199.118.82 (talk) 20:40, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes 197.184.177.43 (talk) 14:56, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

For the cited source for the invention of modification/creation of spear and pg #

Was doing some independant research, figured finding the source link and pg numb. would help improve the page. Please someone with more knowledge than I incorporate this into the page. Thanks for your time :)

Link to Internet Archive: https://archive.org/details/zulukings0000robe_n0e0/page/42/mode/2up?view=theater

pg number: 43 2001:56A:F8CE:2800:34CD:F068:E443:6BD3 (talk) 01:56, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

Requested Move: Shaka → King Shaka Zulu

I propose renaming this article for clarity. The current title “Shaka” is ambiguous: in Zulu it means “the,” and modern global usage (especially in Hawai‘i and the U.S.) most often associates “Shaka” with the Hawaiian shaka hand gesture, not the Zulu king. Renaming to "King Shaka Zulu" would be more precise and historically accurate. The shorter title could instead serve as a disambiguation page, pointing to both the Zulu king and the Hawaiian gesture. This would reduce confusion, improve search relevance, and align with Wikipedia’s guidelines on WP:PRECISE and WP:DISAMBIG. Ranak Jahan (talk) 04:48, 8 September 2025 (UTC)

We do not normally include a royal title for kings.

I would support a move to Shaka Zulu. SergeWoodzing (talk) 08:34, 20 September 2025 (UTC)

"modern global usage (especially in Hawai‘i and the U.S.)" Citation needed. This 51 year old American has never heard of the word shaka being applied to any hand gesture. I have, however, heard of this king. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:41, 22 September 2025 (UTC)

See Shaka sign, a gesture you may know as the "hang loose" hand gesture. It's extremely prevalent in Hawaii, less so on the mainland. Of course this is also why we use sources, and not our own experience, to make such decisions. So the real question is what name is he best known by in English-language sources. Beeblebrox ^Beebletalks 19:13, 22 September 2025 (UTC)

That is important, as usual, but it is also very important that the word "shaka" isn't even a name in his native language, meaning only "the". SergeWoodzing (talk) 01:48, 23 September 2025 (UTC)

We aren't writing in his native language. We are writing in English. If "Shaka" is the most common word used as a name for him in English, that is what we should use. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:33, 24 September 2025 (UTC)

You did notice that I asked for a citation, right? --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:34, 24 September 2025 (UTC)

No need to be a condescending. He obviously noticed, otherwise he wouldn't have pointed you to our own article on the subject. This is a talk page; we should be able to use Wikipedia articles (that are themselves sourced) without being WP:ed to death.

In either case, it is the official hand-sign of Hawaii, as codified by state law:

[§5-23] State gesture. The shaka is adopted, established, and designated as the official gesture of the State. For the purposes of this section, the shaka generally consists of extending the thumb and smallest finger while holding the three middle fingers curled, and gesturing in salutation while presenting the front or back of the hand; the wrist may be rotated back and forth for emphasis. [L 2024, c 85, §2]

You can use search trends to show that use of the term "shaka" is related to both the Zulu king and to the hand gesture. Many articles use the term to refer to the hand gesture, which you would know had you taken 30 seconds to look at the citations of the article that @Beeblebrox linked you to. Search engines produce results about both topics. It is hard or impossible to produce a singular citation demonstrating global usage, because no one author or publication has a monopoly on how words are used and to the best of my knowledge no linguists have studied the use or spread of this word in reference to the hand gesture. Ostip (talk) 08:55, 19 January 2026 (UTC)

@Khajidha I stand by everything that I said but I was cranky last night and I think that my tone was more aggressive than it needed to be. For that, I apologize. Ostip (talk) 03:04, 20 January 2026 (UTC)

No problem. My own comment was a little cranky. I had read his "why we use sources, and not our ownexperoences" as saying that I was ignoring sources when I had actually asked for them. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 21:19, 20 January 2026 (UTC)

Thanks all for the feedback. I’m withdrawing “King Shaka Zulu” per WP:NCROY (we generally don’t include “King” in titles) and proposing instead a move from Shaka → Shaka Zulu with Shaka as a disambiguation page.

Evidence for the target name “Shaka Zulu” (examples to cite):

1. Encyclopædia Britannica: article title “Shaka Zulu”.

2. Oxford Reference / OUP: entries titled “Shaka Zulu.”

3. South African History Online: page title “Shaka Zulu.”

These help on COMMONNAME and support the comment favoring “Shaka Zulu.”

Proposed outcome: Move Shaka → Shaka Zulu. Ranak Jahan (talk) 11:03, 25 September 2025 (UTC)

• Support for several reasons given above. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 22:50, 28 September 2025 (UTC)
• oppose. We don't put "king" in titles like that. The title is fine the way it is. If there is a desire to move it, i'd (weakly) support moving it to Shaka Zulu. Masterhatch (talk) 06:12, 1 February 2026 (UTC)

There is enough support to move this to Shaka Zulu. Odd that we've even kept it this long under a crippled title which only means "the".

This article is written like a bad high school essay

Examples:

"There, he matured, and served as a warrior under Jobe(...)" What does "matured" imply here? It is not explained in the rest of the paragraph/text, nor is the word "matured" mentioned in the source given.

"These people were never defeated in battle by the Zulus; they did not have to be." What? Why?

"Dingane assumed power and embarked on an extensive purge of pro-Shaka elements and chieftains, over the course of several years, in order to secure his position. The initial problem Dingane faced was maintaining the loyalty of the Zulu fighting regiments. He set up his main residence at Mgungundlovu and established his authority over the Zulu kingdom. Dingane ruled for some twelve years, during which time he fought, disastrously, against the Voortrekkers, and against another half-brother, Mpande, who, with Boer and British support, took over the Zulu leadership in 1840, ruling for some 30 years." Why is this entire paragraph in a heading about Shaka's death?

"Social and military revolution" These should be reforms. Gunpowder was a revolution, modern warfare is a revolution; Using one kind of spear together with another or using a formation which encircles enemy is not a revolution, especially since these kind of weapons/tactics already existed.

"Some older histories have doubted the military and social innovations customarily attributed to Shaka, denying them outright, or attributing them variously to European influences. More modern researchers argue that such explanations fall short, and that the general Zulu culture, which included other tribes and clans, contained a number of practices that Shaka could have drawn on to fulfill his objectives, whether in raiding, conquest or hegemony." Mentions multiple researchers, one author used as a source...

"Shaka drilled his troops frequently, in forced marches that sometimes covered more than 80 kilometres (50 mi) a day in a fast trot over hot, rocky terrain" This is put as a fact and then the next two paragraphs are discrediting it...

""Bull horn" formation" Uses word "impi" which is vague.

"Creator of a revolutionary warfare style" Again, not revolutionary. Compares it to Marian reforms which are described as reforms in its article.

"As a borrower, not an innovator" What does this heading even mean and why is it so poetically written?

"The figure of Shaka thus remains an ambiguous one in African oral tradition, defying simplistic depictions of the Zulu king as a heroic, protean nation builder on one hand, or a depraved monster on the other. This ambiguity continues to lend the image of Shaka its continued power and influence, almost two centuries after his death." This is straight up poeticization. Imagine a sentence like this was in an article about Hitler: "Protean nation builder on one hand, or a depraved monster on the other." ~2026-14073-95 (talk) 13:44, 5 March 2026 (UTC)

Requested move 26 June 2026

• Shaka → Shaka ZuluShaka Zulu
• Shaka (disambiguation) → Shaka

– No apparent primary topic between King Shaka and the shaka sign. Pageviews are similar, and search results are a mixture of these items and various businesses. I am uncertain which title should be used for the king if the disambiguation is moved to base title. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 20:00, 26 June 2026 (UTC)

• Oppose, per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, the Zulu king has longer-term significance ("substantially greater enduring notability and educational value") Walrasiad (talk) 16:00, 27 June 2026 (UTC)
• Support per nom. Crouch, Swale (talk) 20:38, 27 June 2026 (UTC)