Jump to content

Talk:Ma Ying-jeou

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Vandalism

[edit]

Mainland vandalism needs to b 4fixed 58.152.218.115 (talk) 01:22, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This needs some kind of protection. Lots of vandalism from Mainlanders 58.152.218.223 (talk) 05:18, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 10 external links on Ma Ying-jeou. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 04:50, 11 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Birth certificate

[edit]

Ma won't have his original birth certificate, the original is always held by the registration authorities, the person registering the birth is given a copy. He may have his parents' original copy, but that's not the original. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.254.234.162 (talk) 21:56, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Dubious

[edit]

It would be extraordinary to be baptized twice as a Catholic. Kaihsu (talk) 11:12, 19 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Kaihsu You may want to take a look at the sources; it seems to be the case.  GuardianH  17:13, 19 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I did: Both sources were based on hearsay. Kaihsu (talk) 18:48, 19 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Kaihsu What are you talking about specifically? There is almost nothing in the second source that suggests it is hearsay.  GuardianH  22:24, 19 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The statements are unlikely to be both true, so they need to be toned down WP:VOICE e.g. “He was reportedly baptized as a Catholic at a young age.[refs]” We probably cannot resolve this further without other (more) reliable sources. Kaihsu (talk) 10:12, 20 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 03:08, 13 March 2026 (UTC)[reply]

lead

[edit]

Per GuardianH's talk page request, I would like to discuss the following points regarding the lead (as mentioned in my edit summary). I would appreciate knowing what evidence suggests they are “factually wrong”: Ma’s parents were not “prominent” (he was born in Rennie's Mill, effectively a refugee camp); “waishengren” does not apply to HK, which is not a sheng; Ma did not begin his career as a director; and Ma did not “hold” the Ma–Xi meeting. The lead was also wordy and inconsistent in terms of “mainland” vs. “PRC”. Enrico Chou (talk) 17:18, 21 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]

We follow what reliable sources say, and can only substantiate what they have written. (1) Copper says quite straightforwardly in his biography of Taiwanese presidents:

Ma was born into a well-­known and politically prominent family. His father held high positions in both the government and the KMT under Chiang Kai-­ shek. His mother was a civil servant.

These and many other sources describe MYJ as belonging to a prominent family. You can be born in a refugee camp and have prominent parents. And he was technically born in Kwong Wah Hospital, which was one of the best hospitals at the time.
(2) The label waishengren (mainlander) is still applied to Ma in reliable sources, essentially because he belonged to politically-connected parents who were mainland Chinese, and Ma himself was born outside of Taiwan. It has a relatively ambiguous definition and is not simply based on one's place of birth (i.e., it takes into consideration whether your parents are mainland Chinese). The sinologist Jacques DeLisle sums this up in the Foreign Policy Research Institute:

Ma engaged the issue of divisive politics, especially identity politics and loyalty-questioning. Throughout the campaign and in his inaugural address, Ma acknowledged the well-known fact that he was born in Hong Kong to a “mainlander” (waishengren) rather than a “Taiwanese” family.

(3) The current longstanding version says that Ma began his political career as a bureau director and English translator... [emphasis added]. This is true. He did not hold a political office before then. Perhaps you interpreted this as referring to simply a "career" as opposed to a "political career."
(4) It is somewhat debateable whether or not MYJ "held" the 2015 Ma-Xi meeting; it was Ma's minister Andrew Hsia who proposed that it be organized in Singapore. "Attended" may be more appropriate, so I changed what I originally wrote.
(5) I would ask that you explain how the lead is inconsistent in terms of "mainland" vs "PRC" (you did not specify how or in what way above). You could also consider drafting an alternative that could be discussed. Jay-GH 18:37, 21 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]
(1) Please see Ma's own eulogy for his father, which refutes any "prominent" family myth about him. The highest position his father held was a division head of the Youth Development Administration, and that was long after Ma was born, by which point Ma's own position had far surpassed his father's. Before fleeing the mainland, Ma's father was briefly a student-solider and then a lowly civil servant in Hunan. The Ma family were originally landlords in their small village and lost nearly everything upon the Communists takeover. The family was going through a rough patch in Hong Kong, supporting themselves with odd jobs such as running a laundry, an open-air tea stall, and selling tickets at an amusement park. By any standard and on any timeline, Ma was not born into a prominent family because his family was not prominent then. If anything, it became "prominent" only because of Ma himself much later.
(2) Waishengren doesn't simply mean mainlander. It means "people from outside the province" and presupposes Taiwan as the point of reference. One is only a waishengren in terms of Taiwan, the sheng in question. No one is born to waishengren in HK because HK itself is waisheng. Every HKer is waishengren by definition.
(3) Ma began his political career as a deputy director of the First Bureau of the Presidential Office, before concurrently serving as Chiang's translator. The director at the time was Liu Hou, not Ma, who did not become a director in his own right until seven years later, in a different unit. See the ROC government post database.
(4) The final paragraph of the lead uses both "mainland" and "PRC" in the same diplomatic context. "Cross-strait relations with mainland China" is also redundant. Enrico Chou (talk) 05:07, 22 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Using a single primary source eulogy by Ma himself about his father doesn't compete with the sea of high-quality secondary sources that we have on hand that actually substantiate the description—using your own comparative analysis based on a eulogy is simply original research, which we don't allow. Your (2) and (3) points are entirely irrelevant and have nothing to do with the points I made above; what RS have described Ma is simply what is substantiated currently, so until you bring equally compelling RS saying otherwise the description is justified. Jay-GH 06:12, 22 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]
The reply is becoming unnecessarily rude and unproductive. As Wikipedians, we should not become attached to our own wording when there is room for improvement. The characterization of Ma’s family as “prominent” largely stems from the widely circulated but incorrect story that his father served as Chiang Kai-shek’s bodyguard. The eulogy directly addresses that myth and concludes. I didn't do a comparative analysis, and I cannot “compare” one source against itself. That does not mean there are no other sources on Ma’s family background, such as the eulogy by Hsia-ling Liu, who knew Ma Ho-ling since their college days: http://www.cwasc.org/liu-ma.pdf.
These sources give detailed accounts of Ma’s family background, which was of typical rural landlord-gentry in a Hunan village. Calling it a “prominent waishengren family” is a stretch, especially given the term’s usual associations in Taiwan with figures such as Pai Hsien-yung or Kevin Tsai. Not even an officer’s family in a juancun would normally be described as a “prominent waishengren family.” I don't think any of your high-quality secondary sources can substantiate the "prominent" characterization with specific examples, particularly at the time of Ma's birth in 1950. Even if one wishes to argue that the later positions held by Ma’s father were sufficiently senior, it is misleading to blur the timeline by conflating the 1950s with the 1990s in the lead.
It is also dishonest to say that points (2) and (3) are “entirely irrelevant.” The sentence is literally, grammatically wrong if one knows what “waishengren” means, and a deputy director is very different from a director, which Ma didn't become until 7 years later.
And some points I forgot to mention last time. First, the claim that Kwong Wah Hospital was “one of the best hospitals at the time” is the opposite of the truth. Kwong Wah was the only free hospital serving Kowloon and the New Territories, a charity hospital for the poor, and was seriously overcrowded, understaffed and outdated in 1950. Second, neither the LLM nor the SJD has a “major” such as international law. Students may tailor their studies by selecting relevant courses, but the degree itself does not carry a major designation, so it is inaccurate to say that he received those degrees “in international law.” Enrico Chou (talk) 08:25, 22 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Ultimately, it comes down to whether or not the sources you've presented are sufficiently pressing to change what Jacques deLisle and John Copper have written in a biography and an article, and using a eulogy published by the state-owned Chinese Sina Corporation, a eulogy by "chineseoverseas.org", etc. don't really make a pressing case. As I mentioned previously, much of what you've written above and put together by these primary sources is original research. E.g., you've provided no RS that explicitly state that the characterization of Ma’s family as “prominent” largely stems from the widely circulated but incorrect story that his father served as Chiang Kai-shek’s bodyguard. We represent what reliable sources have written and Copper and Lisle are the best of these. Jay-GH 19:54, 23 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]
First, either you haven't read the sources, or you can't read Chinese. Ma's eulogy directly addresses the myth that his father served as Chiang Kai-shek's bodyguard. I didn't need to do any original research or interpretation. And I just checked out you go-to source by Copper, who clearly made a mistake in Ma's family background. Copper claims Ma's father "held high positions in both the government and the KMT under Chiang Kai-shek". In reality, before he went to Taiwan, the positions Ma's father had held were: 青年軍第二○四師政治部少校訓導員、青年軍第二○五師第二旅政治部中校科長、青年軍二○五師第三團政工室中校主任、湖南省政府民政廳薦任視察、川湘鄂綏靖公署政工處上校副處長 (See 傳記文學). None remotely qualify as high.
Second, none of the sources provided were published by the outlets you claimed. Ma's eulogy for his father was published by United Daily News, as noted at the top of the page, and was subsequently republished across the Chinese-speaking world, including by the China Youth Daily-affiliated outlet linked. Sina is the web portal, not publisher or content creator. Liu's eulogy was retrieved from the website of the North American Chinese Writers Association of Southern California, where he serves as an advisor.
Third, on the waishengren point: it's simply a grammar mistake obvious to any Chinese speaker, because waishengren doesn't literally mean mainlanders (daluren; neidiren). You may say "born in British Hong Kong to a mainlander family", but not "born in British Hong Kong to a waishengren family" because, what does sheng even refer to in the latter case? HK is not a sheng, and if sheng refers to TW, HK itself is waisheng and everyone there is waishengren.
Fourth, even if you do not really care about the issue itself, another source can still be provided in case you find it slightly more reliable or pressing: Big River, Big Sea by Lung Ying-tai, Ma’s Minister of Culture, who also interviewed Ma's mother for the book. It records the Ma family’s difficult years in HK, such as Ma Ho-ling's attempt to seek relief from the Chinese Association for Relief and Rescue at Rennie's Mill. This is not the portrait of a prominent family.
To be honest, there is no need to gatekeep so aggressively or take revisions so personally. Wikipedia is a collaborative project, so that people can help improve articles, not defend particular versions for personal reasons. Enrico Chou (talk) 05:15, 24 May 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever reliable sources say and have described Ma as, is what we represent. An overwhelming amount of sources describe Ma as belonging to a politically prominent family, thus we stick to the sources. That none of the offices Ma Ho-ling occupied remotely qualify as high is not a widely reproduced viewpoint and comparatively fringe. You will need much higher quality sources to support this viewpoint than the eulogies. And you need to demonstrate that you are not applying your own value judgement in describing the positions (who other than you is explicitly saying None remotely qualify as high?).
Moreover, political office is not the only thing contributing to the "prominent" descriptor. MYJ's mother was born to a highly-educated, wealthy family in Hunan and became a civil servant. MYJ also claims lineage from Ma Chao. The very purpose of eulogies is to idolize and romanticize a person as a means to memorialize them, so it's not too surprising that MYJ emphasizes the bootstrap rags to riches elements of his father's story -- hence, we don't really give them much credence here.
Born in British Hong Kong to a waishengren family clearly refers to Hunan, the birthplace of his mother and father. It's unclear why you think the label is being attributed to Hong Kong when it isn't. As the statement clearly lays out, the label waishengren applies to MYJ's parents. Jay-GH 00:49, 3 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
On a related note, why are you removing content from the lead entirely? Second, neither the LLM nor the SJD has a “major” such as international law. — the lead reflects his specialization in international law and saying "in international law" is a perfectly acceptable way of reflecting this. Jay-GH 01:06, 3 June 2026 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ma_Ying-jeou&oldid=1357549924"