Talk:Lourdes Ambriz

1958 or 1961?

Contradicting sources for date of birth. Should the controversy at least be footnoted? (I wonder if we're dealing with a "real" DoB vs. an "artistic" DoB, à la actresses of the Golden Age of Hollywood getting younger with each passing year.) I'll keep an eye open for an obit from INBA, which might give us a smoking gun. The interview with her I put in the ext lks says 1961...

Another thing: Google Books has munged the name of the author of 70 años de ópera en el Palacio de Bellas Artes,[1] who is significant enough to have been wikied in his home language: José Octavio Sosa. Not sure how you'd fix that, since that's the name Google Books gives. Moscow Mule (talk) 16:20, 1 September 2025 (UTC)

I followed the German Wikipedia and will follow further, making a footnote. The source looks like the only one giving a date. - Will look into the name, - I copied that also. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:52, 1 September 2025 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. You can locate your hook here. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Dclemens1971 talk 04:34, 3 October 2025 (UTC)

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Ambriz in 2016

• ... that Lourdes Ambriz (pictured), a soprano and later artistic director of the Ópera de Bellas Artes de México, dubbed Belle in the Spanish version of Disney's Beauty and the Beast? Source: [2]
• ALT0a: ... that Lourdes Ambriz, a soprano and later artistic director of the Ópera de Bellas Artes de México, dubbed Belle's songs in the Spanish version of Disney's Beauty and the Beast?
  • Reviewed: Rondo capriccioso (Mendelssohn)
  • Comment: ALT0a if we need to be specific about her not doing the character's speaking. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:59, 3 September 2025 (UTC)

Created by Thief-River-Faller (talk) and Gerda Arendt (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 2154 past nominations.

Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:51, 3 September 2025 (UTC).

• This isn't intended to be a full review, but this feels cluttered - why does it matter that she was the director of something unrelated? - and not particularly interesting. "Singer does job of singing" isn't hooky. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 03:03, 4 September 2025 (UTC)

  It's to say that she singer and (later) even leader of a national opera (mentioning Mexico) still did that film work. It's the contrast which makes it interesting, imho. Each fact alone would be less interesting, although a woman leading a national company is still uncommon. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:38, 4 September 2025 (UTC)

  The film is popular, so I believe that readers from the Spanish-speaking world may immediately remember a voice of which they didn't know it was an opera singer's. The fact is in the headline of the obit. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:42, 4 September 2025 (UTC)

• Comment: I found additional Spanish sources. It might be interesting to create a hook that summarizes her long career in just a few words. Perhaps something like
  • ALT1:... that the first opera Lourdes Ambriz ever performed in was Dance of the Ungrateful Women, her professional debut was in The Tales of Hoffmann, and her last opera was placeholder?
• I say placeholder because I only know the first two. Also, I found an article that said she sang a part in Wicked? Viriditas (talk) 09:54, 6 September 2025 (UTC)

  Lovely suggestion, only some DYK people think all opera singing is just doing a job, not creative. While I don't believe that, I created the hook with popularity in mind, trying to please. It's actually what readers may have in their ears, like some voice from Ice Age. Also: usually the first and last operas are normally not as characterising a singer as the ones at the peak of their career. Also: The Tales of Hoffmann were sung in French, and just the opera alone doesn't give a clue, it has three leading woman, for different voice types. Olympia would tell coloratura soprano. We once had a hook about a woman who managed to perform all three, Melitta Muszely. - Unlike König, for whom Tannhäuser was one role that told exactly what king of voice he had (heroic but not the "very strong, very handsome, very stupid" Siegfried, but a complex broken character), nothing stands out in that way in her bio. I was amazed that Mexican premieres of Strauss and Wagner happened during her lifetime and not sooner. - Did you listen to the yt in my story? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:36, 6 September 2025 (UTC)

@Viriditas: Given how DYK these days is generally not a fan of hooks that essentially go "Did you know that actor played role[s]?", I wonder if a different, non-role related angle is possible here. Either that, or a role hook that has additional context and is not just simply about them playing a role. Something like "that when X played the role of Y, Z happened?", if you get what I mean. The concern I have is that if a reader is not familiar with any of the specific operas mentioned, the hook's appeal becomes more tenuous. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:44, 7 September 2025 (UTC)

Her dedication and commitment to bringing the work of Mexican composers to the forefront of classical performance in her country and elsewhere is the most interesting thing I could find, but I've yet to expand that idea. Viriditas (talk) 01:05, 8 September 2025 (UTC)

And what about the hooks already proposed. A microphone (as pictured) doesn't easily connect to opera singing ;) - and being artistic director gives her a leading stand. - Mexican composers are less known, but perhaps write about some of their operas, or composers who don't have an article. One of the Mexican operas has an article, but without details about the roles. The same person's other opera is a children's opera with no article even in Spanish.

Narutolovehinata5, I don't understand how readers would have to be familiar with an opera or a role. We have roles (in film, opera ...) that even have an article because they are so interesting. Why not mention them with a link, and those who care may learn, and others ignore, especially if the hook also supplies some other information, as in this case her leadership? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:43, 8 September 2025 (UTC)

To put it simply, if a reader is not familiar with a role, they won't know why the role is a big deal or find the fact that the actor played that role interesting. A link would not suffice: it has to be something that readers are familiar with and can understand. A hook about an actor playing SpongeBob is not interesting if the reader does not know who SpongeBob is. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 08:47, 8 September 2025 (UTC)

I will try again:

• ALT1a: ... that soprano Lourdes Ambriz (pictured) performed on Misa Mexicana, a recording of liturgical music that is both rooted in the Baroque and evokes traditional Mexican music?
  • Source: Millán, Eduardo Soto (7 July 2009). "Misa mexicana". Proceso. Retrieved 2025-09-07.</ref>

Will need to add it to the article. Viriditas (talk) 09:43, 8 September 2025 (UTC)

Done.[3] Viriditas (talk) 09:57, 8 September 2025 (UTC)

Thank you, I gave it links. - Narutolovehinata5, why would a link not suffice in a DYK hook when it is the key to Wikipedia? (Those who know can keep reading, others can be intrigued to learn something new.) If we return again and again to what people already know (such as Carmen), we miss a chance to introduce something they don't know, such as Marina that brought her to Europe (in case that opera had already an article in English and not only in Spanish). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:07, 8 September 2025 (UTC)

My problem with ALT1 is that it places her in Mexico, but ignores opera completely, and top leading even more. It says much more about the piece than about her versatility. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:11, 8 September 2025 (UTC)

No worries. We both know that it's impossible for me to write a hook that you will like or approve. I'm not bothered at all by that. I just like to play against the house. Viriditas (talk) 10:18, 8 September 2025 (UTC)

I don't think so because I didn't say its impossible ;) - I just think it provides no idea how great she was. I believe that Misa Mexicana is a title that explains the piece enough, and we could use the rest of 200 chars for her. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:18, 8 September 2025 (UTC)

@Viriditas: My concern with the ALT is that it seems to be more about Misa Mexicana than Ambriz, meaning it wouldn't fit WP:DYKMAJOR. One solution could be to write an article about Misa Mexicana and make it a double hook. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:47, 8 September 2025 (UTC)

• ALT2: ... that Lourdes Ambriz (pictured) adapted The Elixir of Love by Gaetano Donizetti into a minimalist production as part of a national tour to try and reach new opera audiences in Mexico?
  • Source: "Elixir de Amor se presentará en el Teatro San Francisco". Milenio Hidalgo. 23 August 2016; "¡Cuéntame una Ópera!, El Elixir de amor (L'ELISIR D'AMORE)". (10 September 2016). Instituto Sinaloense de Cultura (ISIC).

Are we having fun yet? Viriditas (talk) 11:40, 8 September 2025 (UTC)

Sure.

ALT2a: ... that Lourdes Ambriz (pictured) adapted Donizetti's L'elisir d'amore into a minimalist production as part of a national tour of Mexico to reach new opera audiences? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:18, 8 September 2025 (UTC)

How about not using 200 chars and keeping it short and hooky?

• ALT0b: ... that Lourdes Ambriz (pictured) was the singing voice of Belle in the original Spanish version of Disney's Beauty and the Beast?

People will have to click to find out more. Viriditas (talk) 23:05, 8 September 2025 (UTC)

Note: I just discovered the ultimate potential hook, but I have yet to write it and incorporate it into the article. If anyone wants to have a go at it before I do, this is basically the idea in a nutshell: Ambriz commissioned a piece that became known as "Kabara's Lullaby" from composer Paul Alan Barker. The original music is based on a wax cylinder recording made by South African ethnomusicologist Percival Kirby in 1936.[4] It was later digitized by Anthony Traill at the University of Witwatersrand. Bonnie Sands further edited it to bring out the background. The original recording is of a lullaby sung by a mother to her baby in the extinct South African Khoisan language known as Ku|khaasi. Barker turned the lullaby into a seven minute piece which Ambriz sung over along with contrabassist Luis Antonio Rojas. It was recorded on the album Cuerpo del Verano (2008). Barker appears to have continued the series on his own recordings.[5] Doesn't get any more interesting than that! Viriditas (talk) 02:24, 9 September 2025 (UTC)

Forgive me for outdenting and speaking up again, but any singer could have done it. Adding that she became director of the national opera makes it more interesting, imho.

ALT0c: ... that Lourdes Ambriz, who was the singing voice of Belle in the original Spanish version of Beauty and the Beast, became artistic director of the Mexican National Opera?

Thank you for expanding the article. Please write Marina (opera), or mention the composer in the lead, or drop it there; - a no-name opera is not informative. Mozart came first, then the Mexican composers. - 15 years ago OTD, we had a pictured hook about Erminia Frezzolini and Antonio Poggi (articles by 4meter4, and I don't remember who nominated). It told readers things on many levels, for those interested in private matters that they were husband and wife, for those who want to know a bit mere that they performed together, at La Scala, in the premiere of a Verdi opera (one of those less known), portraying two historic people dealt with in literature, with the little quirkiness that she had the title role. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:50, 9 September 2025 (UTC)

I used a tool to translate DYK FAQ (from Template talk:Did you know) into German for you because you are ignoring it: "Erfolgreiche Hooks weisen in der Regel mehrere Merkmale auf. Am wichtigsten ist, dass sie eine überraschende oder faszinierende Tatsache enthalten. Sie geben den Leserinnen und Lesern genügend Kontext, um den Hook zu verstehen, lassen jedoch bewusst so viel offen, dass Neugier geweckt wird. Sie richten sich an ein allgemeines Publikum ohne Vorkenntnisse oder besonderes Interesse am Thema. Schließlich sind sie prägnant und beschränken sich auf das Wesentliche – ohne mehrere Fakten zu vermischen oder zusätzliche Informationen bereitzustellen, die über das zum Verständnis des Hooks Notwendige hinausgehen." Danke. Viriditas (talk) 20:52, 9 September 2025 (UTC)

I am not surprised by the translation. Can we stay with this person. She dubbed Belle, fine. But that she did it as a highly accomplished opera singer, makes it more surprising, no? Anyway, do what you want, - I'm going to travel, sing concert, have guests: no time. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:03, 9 September 2025 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: I added a link to Emilio Arrieta in the lead before Marina. Not so sure about the Mozart placement in the lead, so I will leave that to you. I did not find much about it the sources, but I think there was one that mentioned something but it escapes me. I would concur with others up above that we shouldn't have a busy hook. While "any" singer could have sung the role of Belle in the Spanish language film, only two have so far, one in the 1991 film and the other in the 2017 live-action remake. Viriditas (talk) 08:11, 9 September 2025 (UTC)

(ec) Perhaps (again) move article-related things to the talk? Or not, I don't mind but it fills the DYK page. "Mozart" is there to give a short impression of what kind of soprano she has: light and coloratura (not heroic). "Mozart" is shorter than "coloratura", and associates a musical impression instead of just being a technical term. She sang many roles by Mozart, including the more lyrical ones, adding to "wide range". Little Verdi, because he wrote for different voices. In the article I work on right now, Christoph von Dohnányi, the phrase "balance between traditional and innovative" is used. - Back to the hook: Belle is nice and commonly known, but leaving her with that alone seems to be unfair to her achievements in life, leaving her in a voice actress category only, which may completely boring for readers who'd be interested in an opera singer. To be considered. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:38, 9 September 2025 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: Gerda, as you can see from the above discussion, you changed the subject from the DYK to the lead section. If you want to move the discussion about the article, you are welcome to do so, but you initiated it. Viriditas (talk) 08:57, 9 September 2025 (UTC)

Pleading guilty, and will try to do better next time. I moved Mozart within the lead. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:59, 9 September 2025 (UTC)

I just discovered all the Pro Ópera articles, and there's a bit about Mozart there. Unfortunately, it's going to take me some time to read all of this. Viriditas (talk) 08:31, 9 September 2025 (UTC)

No problem, and the roles are already in the article, more than by any other I believe, - it doesn't need more text to summarize them as Mozart in the lead. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:38, 9 September 2025 (UTC) There's also the Mozart medal, - enough, really. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:02, 9 September 2025 (UTC)

Not seeing a review on this page and this is taking up room on TM:TDYK, so let's get it off. This is long and new enough and I don't see anything wrong with the QPQ. Earwig picks up only WP:LIMITEDs and I pick up no reason why this might deserve a maintenance template. I'm approving ALT0c, with the suggestion that they be tightened (this is a good image and her name will still be in the caption):

ALT0d: ... that an artistic director of the Mexican National Opera (pictured) provided the singing voice of Belle in the Spanish version of Disney's Beauty and the Beast?

ALT0e: ... that the woman (pictured) who provided the singing voice of Belle in the Spanish version of Disney's Beauty and the Beast was also an artistic director of the Mexican National Opera?

ALT0f: ... that an opera singer (pictured) provided the singing voice of Belle in the Spanish version of Disney's Beauty and the Beast?--Launchballer 13:42, 11 September 2025 (UTC)

Thank you for the review! I am afraid that d and e won't work because she wasn't yet artistic director (2017) when she was Belle (1990). I also see no reason to hide her name in a pipe. In f, "opera singer" is less strong than "soprano of the National Mexican opera" would be. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:07, 11 September 2025 (UTC)

I prefer ALT0d due to its tighter wording. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 08:55, 15 September 2025 (UTC)

I explained that she wasn't artistic director when she was the voice of Belle, - please rephrase that. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:34, 15 September 2025 (UTC)

ALT0g: ... that a future artistic director of the Mexican National Opera (pictured) provided the singing voice of Belle in the Spanish version of Disney's Beauty and the Beast?--Launchballer 10:36, 15 September 2025 (UTC)

Possible, but why would we not mention her name? Some may recognise it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:41, 15 September 2025 (UTC)

Ideally we want hooks to be as concise as possible. Mentioning her by name would make the hook longer than necessary. If the article will be in the image slot, her name will be in the caption anyway, so it should not be an issue. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:32, 16 September 2025 (UTC)

Reviewing this for promotion, and I hate to add to this already long thread... but I don't see that the citations on the claim that she was artistic director in the article confirm that? Two sources are offered for that sentence ([6], [7]) and neither to my reading say anything about her being the artistic director of the opera or the dates she held that role. Also, the article is inconsistent. In the lead, it says she was appointed artistic director in 2017 and in the text it says she was artistic director from 2015 to 2017. Considering that all the approved hooks depend on the fact of her appointment to this role at the opera, I'm sorry to say this nomination is not yet ready for promotion without additional improvements. Dclemens1971 (talk) 01:19, 3 October 2025 (UTC)

I believe I've fixed it.--Launchballer 01:45, 3 October 2025 (UTC)

Fixed indeed! This discussion moves one step closer to the finish line. Dclemens1971 (talk) 04:33, 3 October 2025 (UTC)

Awards

The Spanish sources say she has won at least two awards (maybe three) in addition to the older awards in the current version. Viriditas (talk) 20:47, 6 September 2025 (UTC)

Added. Viriditas (talk) 22:20, 7 September 2025 (UTC)

Lead image

This is a very bad image of her. I am looking at all the images of her from the last 15 years and this lead image does not depict her well at all. Viriditas (talk) 22:21, 7 September 2025 (UTC)

Okay, the way to fix this is to apply a mask and blur the background on a new crop of the full image. Viriditas (talk) 23:16, 7 September 2025 (UTC)

Uploaded and replaced. A little too dark for my taste. The original image with the blurred background at 50% of this one looks really good, but the black TV in the background bugged me. This fake bokeh eliminates it entirely. Remove it if you don't like. Viriditas (talk) 00:59, 8 September 2025 (UTC)

Thank you, also for the awards. - Normally, there's no free image, and Storye book finds a great one, unfree. In this case, that's not possible, because this one was there. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:48, 8 September 2025 (UTC)

Chronology

Article is not written in chronological order nor is it sorted in a way conducive to the reader. I don't understand why people do this. Viriditas (talk) 00:37, 9 September 2025 (UTC)

Please ask those who wrote it, probably many, adding here and there. (I knew about her only when she died.) - Singers' articles are often grouped by topics such as This opera house, That opera house, In concert, Work in other fields, - because if you stay chronological you'd mention the same operas a few times, and it's a service to a reader only interested in concert work to have that together. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:12, 9 September 2025 (UTC)

Birth date

Lourdes Ambriz was born in Mexico City on 20 July 1958

All the authoritative opera sources say she was born in 1961 going back to 1999. Viriditas (talk) 08:43, 9 September 2025 (UTC)

I came from the German Wikipedia, and didn't see "authoritative sources" yet, - most that I saw just gave an age (yes, often 64) without any birth date. They may all be right or all be wrong, who knows. There is (or was) a tendency among opera singers trying to appear younger than they are. I had a struggle with two sopranos who wanted the birth date leave their articles, and I gave in. Handle this you see fit. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:28, 9 September 2025 (UTC)

Mexican composers

I believe the Mexican composers deserve a paragraph not only a footnote (which I missed until now). Perhaps recording at all. She left great Virtual concerts on YouTube. And Mozart. -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:13, 9 September 2025 (UTC)

nice fotos, 67, same, 64 --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:38, 9 September 2025 (UTC)